nobuzz and everyone,

Though I'm certainly NOT convinced that the lasercomb will do anything to combat hairloss, I don't want to rule it out as a POSSIBILITY if there are credible doctors like Dr. Bauman that state that it could have some merit. BUT, personally, I wo'nt recommend it until I see research and evidence that it really works.

Whereas HT is certainly the only guaranteed option of re-establishing some hair on the top of our heads, certainly if we stated that this was the ONLY option, we'd have to rule out finasteride and minoxodil as well.

Certainly you won't find me advocating the lasercomb ANYWHERE, but I'm open to the research as it comes. Whereas Dr. Feller (one of the esteemed doctors that disregards that laser technology does anything to stimulate growth) may disagree with Dr. Bauman, he does admit and state that Dr. Bauman is an esteemed collegue and holds him in high respect.

That being said, I am open to the research...but until I can be convinced that it really has some merit, I certainly won't be recommending it. I think our motto in this field so-to-speak, has to be "unknown until proven that it works". Being skeptical is very valid, especially since there are many scams out there...I myself have tried many of them before I really started researching at about 26 years of age.

It WOULD be nice if the laser comb or any laser technology had some validity...but right now, to me, it is a big unknown. THOUGH, it does bother me that since I've been around on the forums, I haven't really seen one person validate any claims of it working for them and laser technology HAS been around for years. So in my eyes, it doesn't look good...but I'd still like to see more research.

Falc

quote:

Originally posted by falceros:
...personally, I wo'nt recommend it until I see research and evidence that it really works.
..I'd still like to see more research, some validity. Right now... it is a big unknown.
Falc

Falc, I wouldn't disagree that laser therapy requires more resarch. The catalog of 3000 papers is just scratching the surface of how low level laser therapy affects cell-metabolism and living organisms. (Most of the papers can be found at www.laser.nu) Of course, with hair loss, there are very few studies.

It is important to remember that it took YEARS before propecia was recommended more than "rarely" in the field of hair restoration--even after the research and FDA approval. However, not many would admit to 'sneering' at Propecia back then... and how long it took them to feel comfortable recommending the treatment.
Also, I would NEVER advocate the lasercomb as being the end-all be-all... especially with so many new medical-device versions that are coming to market. There are literally dozens of laser devices that are now available, in-office and home units--each with their own pros and cons. Keep in mind that only a very small handful of patients are here in the htn forums--so sometimes we can get a distorted view...

For those looking for a '3rd party testimonial' of a laser patient, here's a laser-related article for you from a South Florida paper: http://www.palmbeachpost.com/accent/content/accent/epap...04/14/0414laser.html April is a patient of mine who had a good result using only pure laser therapy. The reporter first visited my office in 2002, about two and a half years after I started using laser therapy.

The conclusions from initial research is quite clear. I would once again encourage anyone interested to READ what the FDA has published.http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/pdf6/K060305.pdf The increase in terminal hair density was statistically significant. I would argue that this document makes laser therapy a little less of 'a big unknown.' Does it not?

Dr. B.

quote:

Originally posted by falceros:
nobuzz and everyone,

BUT, personally, I wo'nt recommend it until I see research and evidence that it really works.

Certainly you won't find me advocating the lasercomb ANYWHERE, but I'm open to the research as it comes.

That being said, I am open to the research...but until I can be convinced that it really has some merit, I certainly won't be recommending it. I think our motto in this field so-to-speak, has to be "unknown until proven that it works". Being skeptical is very valid, especially since there are many scams out there...I myself have tried many of them before I really started researching at about 26 years of age.

It WOULD be nice if the laser comb or any laser technology had some validity...but right now, to me, it is a big unknown. THOUGH, it does bother me that since I've been around on the forums, I haven't really seen one person validate any claims of it working for them and laser technology HAS been around for years. So in my eyes, it doesn't look good...but I'd still like to see more research.

Falc

Falc, I agree that it would be nice to see research and photos of real patient results (who are not also on Fin and Minox).

The big problem is that the FDA approval of this "unknown" is going to be all the research and proof many gullible patients will need to fork out their hard earned dollars on. The cat is out of the bag.

For the patients who fall for this I hope they get their money's worth - but, I doubt they will.

Can we hear from some of you who have tried this product with or without success?

I predict laser cheerleading plants will start showing up here more often. A little skeptisism is prudent here. Falc, glad you will not be recommending this yet my open-minded friend!

Dr. Bauman,

Thank you for your continually providing information for us regarding laser therapy. I would admit that the initial research according to that document does show promise...but I'm trying to combine this information with the information posted by JoTronic regarding 510K approval processes. So if you will, I"m still "combing" (pun intended :P) through the data to make sense of it all. What I've concluded at this point based on what I've read is simple: more data is needed in order for me to make a proper decision about whether any type of laser therapy should be recommended as an OPTION to fight against hairloss. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. So whereas you won't hear me "snearing" at laser therapy like many do, you certainly won't hear me advocate it until I do see more proof and real results from people using it.

But this creates a dilemma....how do we really know if it works if there aren't people out there using it to report back their results? Yet at the same time, I wouldn't want to recommend people go out there and do it with the hopes that it WILL work, because it's a lot of money to blow if not.

So I remain on the fence until I see clear evidence without any ambiguity. It's also the same reason why I don't typically recommend certain doctors...they may or may not be excellent...but if I haven't seen enough work done by them (before/after photos posted by the clinic AND real patients), I won't be comfortable making a personal recommendation. What others do and how they handle it, of course, is up to them. I'm one voice on the forum

So in conclusion Dr. Bauman...I'd appreciate hearing about any clinical findings that either support or deny the performance of laser therapy as related to hairloss.

Nobuzz,

I agree with everything you are saying 100%. I think we need a level of skeptisism because of all the false marketing tactics out there. We MUST be the voice of reason on this forum that help paint the reality picture for seeking patients rather than provide false dreams. I've been down that road far too many times...and I lost a lot of ground on wasted miracle formulas.

Well, as we know, "cheerleaders" can be easily spotted. There is no need to post generalities about how awesome laser therapy is...we want before/after pictures and detailed regimes to support the claim. I imagine, even so, a certain level of skeptisicm must be kept until we see something relatively consistent.

Falc

Seriously guys.....this forum I thought would continue to steer people away from being misled. It's nice to make nice with a Doctor, I guess, but why on this subject? Where's the results, pictures, volumes of success. And further more where's the disclosure? Why would a doctor post on message board? For the good of all mankind?

THE LASER COMB DOESN'T WORK. IT SUCKS. THE FDA HAS A LONG TRACK RECORD OF APPROVING IFFY PRODUCTS.

I understand this community is doing well, but entertaining this kind of crap in a civil way just keeps the door open to everything bad about the industry. The board used to slam scams and butchers. Now we're more sensitive. Buyer beware.

bezane,

I am not suggesting that it works...I'm asking for more research.

I'm only stating that I don't want to make statements that have no proof or validity either way. I will NOT recommend the product at this time UNTIL THERE IS PROOF, which may never happen. I've said that before...read above. BUT, I still will state that I'd be interested in seeing any research that points out that it does work, whether it be laser therapy or something else.

I think having an open mind is imperative to research...period. That's the whole point of what I'm stating.

Nobody here is trying to "make nice" with any doctors, at least I certainly am not and could care less. If you have actually read some of my posts, you'll see that I've challenged and disagreed with the best of them and told them as such through countless debates. Read more and learn more about this community before you start insulting everyone's intelligence.

Falc

New, Peer-Reviewed Scientific Report (April 2007): Hair Growth Stimulation in Laser Hair Removal Patients. Physicians from Spain report that over 10% of 543 hair removal patients experienced hair stimulation from a laser hair removal treatment. This phenomenon occurred within the treated area and also in area adjacent to the treated area. It is postulated by the physicians in the report that 'sub-therapeutic' energy that was delivered to the area induced terminal hair growth. They identified the most important 'risk' of this unwanted, paradoxical terminal hair growth as the 'presence of fine hair growth' within the treated area. (p.300)

Scientific reports such as these give us some clues as to which hereditary hair loss patients might be a good candidate for laser hair therapy.

Follow this link to download the .pdf version of the published report: http://baumanmedical.typepad.com/follicleblog/2007/05/ipl_hair_remova.html


Lasers in Surgery and Medicine 39:297-301 (2007) "Hair Stimulation Following Laser and Intense Pulsed Light Photo-Epilation: Review of 543 Cases and Ways to Manage It"

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DrBauman:

Physicians from Spain (who are these Physicians???)

report that over 10% of 543 hair removal patients experienced hair stimulation from a laser hair removal treatment. This phenomenon occurred within the treated area and also in area adjacent to the treated area. It is postulated by the physicians in the report that 'sub-therapeutic' energy that was delivered to the area induced terminal hair growth. They identified the most important 'risk' of this unwanted, paradoxical terminal hair growth as the 'presence of fine hair growth' within the treated area.


Wow! A 10% chance of getting some "fine hair growth"!!! Those are great odds



"Scientific reports such as these give us some clues as to which hereditary hair loss patients might be a good candidate for laser hair therapy".


I wonder if patients will be sold their procedures based on if they are a good candidate or not. I doubt it, most laser clinics will probably be very willing to take your money.

Thanks for the info anyway Dr Bauman.

quote:

Originally posted by nobuzz4me:
Wow! A 10% chance of getting some "fine hair growth"!!! Those are great odds

No, no. You're reading it wrong. Read it again. It says they think the reason 10% of the people had terminal hair growth was because those people originally had some fine hairs around the area being treated and those fine hairs grew thicker and longer.

As for the 10% figure... we don't know how good that is because we don't know what percentage of the 543 had any fine hairs around the area being treated to begin with.

However if we assume that not everyone had fine vellous hairs to begin with than the percentage of people who had fine hair grow into terminal hair increases accordingly.

Behappy,

I think this is still reaching, most everyone, even NW6's have fine vellous hair which makes no real difference in your appearance. Where is the photographic evidence of this phenomina these doctors report? I am sure they have some but how could we know the patients are not on fin and minox under these trials? I do not trust this whole laser thing. Just my opinion.

Hey Falc....certainly not insulting anyone's intelligence, especially yours. You know the score as well as anyone here. But this is a sore subject with us guys in need of of hope. It takes money, a good surgeon and thats it. Let's face it, 30K can get you pretty far with Hasson/Wong/Keene/Shapiro etc. And before everyone starts balling about how much money that is, the same idiots don't sneeze at some crappy car with the same price tag. 2-3 good surgeries and 18-24 months and anxieties are a thing of the past.

Do you know how much I suffered going from a bushy head of hair to it all falling out. If I was a chick, it's like I woke up and my tits were hanging around my knees. It ruined my life. I did something about it. But not before I put my faith in a lot of hucksters playing games not just with my money but my life. Corn rows. Creams. Lotions. All crap. As silly as some may think it is, baldness is a debilitating freaking thing. I don't take it lightly. And some desperate guy thinking that if he pushes a $700 dollar comb through his head will change anything he is wrong. And those that profess to make that happen need to be called on the carpet. Screw it. The pain and suffering has to stop here. There's the list. Stop spending money on crap for a couple of years and do something. Or shave your head and buy combat boots......BUT PLEASE NO MORE FALSE HOPE. It's 2007. We know what to do.

Hi

I consider myself an extrememly objective person but the Laser comb, to me is a farce. There is no consistent data that proves ( not implies) Hair growth..

I don't advocate

bezane,

Thanks for the post. I can't say I'm quite sure of the tone of your message nor why it was directed exactly at me...but I will reply. First...you said:

quote:

Do you know how much I suffered going from a bushy head of hair to it all falling out.

Yes, I BELIEVE I know exactly how that feels. Considering I had a thick head of hair in high school, grew it long and women loved to run their fingers through my hair and now, if I didn't have 3 hair transplants, I'd be a full norwood 6...I THINK I have a pretty good idea of what you are going through .

quote:

As silly as some may think it is, baldness is a debilitating freaking thing. I don't take it lightly.

I can relate...it can be very discouraging and ultimately we end up feeling badly about ourselves and even worse...sometimes we let it affect the way we live...hopefully we don't let it come to that, but for some, it happens.

quote:

And some desperate guy thinking that if he pushes a $700 dollar comb through his head will change anything he is wrong. And those that profess to make that happen need to be called on the carpet. Screw it. The pain and suffering has to stop here.

Let me be CLEAR...I am NOT an advocate of the laser comb or even laser technology...never was. Nowhere in my posts will you find that I am saying that it works. What I am stating, however, is that if there is a respectable physician such as Dr. Bauman that sees some possibility of merit in it, I would like to see more research documenting proof of it working...and even still...I would NEVER advocate it unless I've actually seen it work on real patients, just as I have with finasteride and minoxodil. But even if there is proof that there is some benefit, it will hardly be a miracle cure. See below...

Even finasteride or minoxodil are HARDLY miracle drugs. They might at best regrow SOME hair, and do a pretty good job most the time in keeping existing hair...but they will never regrow a full mop on a bald man.

Again, I do NOT advocate laser technology....but I am always open to reading research studies and then making evaluations as to whether or not there is SOME merit to be found in it. In that, I am willing to keep an open mind. But my open mind is not an attempt to give false hopes...I am often the first one to call the kettle black when false hopes are being given. Check out my posts in other sections on scam companies such as "Scalpmed".

Hopefully you see what I'm trying to say more clearly now.

Falc

The laser comb is not a baldness cure, period.

It is being very slickly marketed along with finasteride/minox and being touted as a "new step" in the search for the cure.

Now that the product is approved by the FDA, imagine the many uniformed sufferers who have already signed up for these combs?

Does it work? ..... sure, but what does it work on?

Dr. Bauman is among the many docs who are so very happy that they can justify overcharging for "laser treatments"

Why is it every 22-27 year old guy I talk to is 1500-2500 lighter in the pocket and looking for a HT?

Before anyone offers a rebuttal, the Laser Comb is approved as a STAND ALONE treatment, not in conjuction with minox/finasteride, so let's be honest and say that the very VERY few people this product may help, do nothing to balance out the many it will NOT help.

I am not pointing this at Dr. Bauman, but sometimes us "guinnea pigs" get a bit tired of all of the self-convincing and glad-handing that is going on over this over-hyped, over-priced and less than stellar product.

Of course, I could be wrong.

J

quote:

Why is it every 22-27 year old guy I talk to is 1500-2500 lighter in the pocket and looking for a HT?

This is obviously thier target demographic.
I remember being that age (barely)
I still had a pretty full head of hair but noticed something was going on.
At that point a HT is not even considered, but is there some vitamins or nutrition or some snake oil? I remember reading everthing I could get my hands on concerning hair loss.
The point being is that it is an ez sell to a twenty something guy these days. And since it probably grew some hair stronger under a microscope it got approved.
I must admit I would have probably tried to buy a laser comb when I was 25 if it was available then. Hell I was looking for any hope!
Do I think it works? Not enough to give any cosmetic value.

It works even better after surgery. When your screwed. Sales wise that is . Mr. Bauman why are you catering to females? Even the fops in field disociate themselves from this therapy.
Pull out the ballbats boys. enough is enough.

Hey Falc.....only directed the point to you because you wee engaged in the dialogue and are prominent here.

To be honest, if Dr. Bauman is esteemed then he should stick to transplants and not advocate a PROVEN SHAM. I for one don't need to see some new rebuffed tests or results. The laser comb has been around for a long time and awhile back even attached itself to doctors without their blessing. That is public record. Doctors as far back as Unger had to cease and desist them. So when I see it pop up again, I feel it is my moral obligation to shoot it down with all my might. Because to the vulnerable demographic that wastes time waiting for growth, they can get busy with the real deal.

The techniques used by our favorites here are virtually undetectable. I was in Keene's chair the other day for a slight touch up and the shampoo girl had only been there six months and asked me why I was starting so early when you can hardly notice any baldness. I had to clue her that all my hair was transplanted. So there's hope. But not in the Laser Comb.

I'm just miffed that this board has enough clout to make new readers believe whatever is posted on it. And Laser Comb being touted by a doctor here with links and a somewhat aggressive stance makes me think that the bait will be snatched.

I care more if some kid gets hustled than some doctor gets his feelings hurt. About a year ago I slammed Dr. Williams from Las Vegas on this forum for pushing the corny laser helmet. And let me tell you, I like Dr. Williams but nailing some guy an extra 350 or so for follow up laser helmet treatments was plain silly.

The advancement in transplant techniques, limited sessions and styling is so far beyond many expectations, why not just go with it. I understand not enough doctors are doing and the reason is that it is very hard and tedious work. An army of microscopes, and a surgeon like Keene placing every single graft herself is mind boggling. And for what? $500 bucks an hour or so? The future is grim if techniques and practitioners don't continue to grow and advance. That or the price will just go higher. And it probably should. But given the astounding amount of detail and precision one of these surgeons has to deal with to be the best, I understand that some might see $$$$$ in alternatives.

Make sure you check it out guys. Don't put more time into understanding what flat screen TV is best than what surgeon will do a HT right. The list is short I'd say, but they are out there for the taking.

And if you are ever out in the desert off the old route 66, I think near the Arizona/New Mexico Border, there's a museum dedicated to The Devil's Rope (barbed wire). Just up the road about 100 yards there's an old Indian Chief that has a roadside stand. His associate is one of the last practicing witch doctors known in those parts. He offers sessions for $25 where he bops you on the head with a rattlesnake tail and then sprays the venom of a scorpion on your bald spot. Heard it works as well as the LASER COMB .......for a fraction of the price.

quote:

The advancement in transplant techniques, limited sessions and styling is so far beyond many expectations, why not just go with it.

Some people (myself included) who visit this board have had previous bad transplants done and are unable to have additional standard HT's done, so not everyone is able to just go with it. I wish I could do that because I know the current standards would work much better than what I had. I (we) have to look for something else that might work even if it's just enough to make the mess we have not quite as bad.

I'm not saying the laser comb works and I haven't tried it myself, but I have seen at least some evidence that it does work, so I think it's worth keeping an eye on for while. There are a few people from another forum blogging their results of laser comb use, so I'm waiting to see what becomes of that.

quote:

Originally posted by nobuzz4me:
Physicians from Spain (who are these Physicians???)

NoBuzz, I posted the abstract for the article--the physicians are listed there as well as many others who have reported unwanted (unexplained) hair stimulation with laser hair removal treatments.

As I am sure you know, 10% increase in terminal hair density is about what you get with minoxidil. And, as I have said MANY times, laser phototherapy (much like minoxidil) is NOT a miracle cure. All of us know that minoxidil (or even Propecia) can't come close to what hair transplantation can do in terms of replacing lost coverage, but certainly few can argue that minoxidil is not an effective treatment, right? Minoxidil's effectiveness is well documented in the scientific literature, and by those who stop using it. My point is that laser therapy is NOT a substitute for hair transplantation--but it does have a role.

It is important to keep in mind that the non-invasive treatments work in a very different way than the invasive ones. If someone needs fewer transplants because of the non-invasive treatments, that's a good thing. Whether it's worth the effort or expense is a personal decision each patient needs to make on his or her own.

In terms of the skepticism--that's also a good thing. I was certainly a huge skeptic until I saw the hair changes first hand. When I went to medical school, there were no classes on how lasers or light-energy effects cellular metabolism, wound healing, etc. Today, it's being researched at institutions like Harvard and MIT: (e.g. "Lasers Stimulate Wound-Healing)

In my practice back in 1999 we did not charge a single patient for the therapy for over a year. (Please note that I've treated MANY more patients with in-office laser units than with hand-helds.) Healthy consumer and physician skepticism will also help motivate the manufacturers of these devices to support more studies.

Part of the problem right now is exactly what has been mentioned: in some clinics and online, men and women will be sold hand-held lasers or in-office laser regimens whether they are a "good candidate or not."

If these patients or "laser-testers" are hoping for hair transplant coverage from a laser, they're going to be sorely disappointed. Just like with transplantation--appropriate expectations are critical for success.

--Dr. B.

If these patients or "laser-testers" are hoping for hair transplant coverage from a laser, they're going to be sorely disappointed. Just like with transplantation--appropriate expectations are critical for success.


Dr, I think is what angers myself and others----

We know what "might" happen after laser treatments, but the general public is under the impression that laser therapy possesses the same level of success as finasteride/minox.

Anyway, good luck with continued research, hopefully you will have some timelined photos showing the gains laser therapy has afforded.

Take Care,
J