Hello all,

I apologize ahead of time for this long post. I'll just say that ANY subjective or medical advice is greatly appreciated. I feel like I'm a unique case in hair loss--you can call me crazy, but please offer advice if you have any. I'll start by asking the questions that I need the answers to, and then please scroll down if you'd like to read my story.

A. Does anyone have any negative experiences they can provide regarding LONG-TERM Propecia side effects that absolutely did not subside?

B. Does anyone have any estimate of what the real percentages of long-term Propecia users who experience side effects might be (i.e. not the inaccurate numbers provided my Merck)? What are the percentages for whom these side effects did not desist after they quit the drug?

C. Does anyone know of cases where side effects WORSENED after the drug was stopped? By this, I mean do people notice the side effects, quit the drug before they get too serious, only to notice that the side effects get worse afterwords?

I am a 23-year old male with what I believe is the beginning of slight MPB. It is absolutely not noticeable to anyone but me, and even the dermatologists only acknowledged it as "slight, if any, beginnings to a deepening widow's peak." I know my hair, though, and this is a significant change from two years ago. I estimate anywhere from 150-250 hairs shed per day--also a significant increase. Between my male family members--my father, two grandfathers, two uncles--only ONE of them has any indication of MPB (which is my uncle, and he is certain it did not start in him until his early 30's).

I took Propecia (1mg finasteride) for one month, and then stopped taking it two weeks ago. I took it because two of the most prominent dermatologists on the west coast of the U.S. said they had prescribed it for years without any more than 2-3% negative side effects in their patients (as the manufacturer, Merck, asserts to be the case). This goes in complete contrast to some of the online subjective accounts of Propecia usage (on forums such as propeciahelp.com). Also, on these forums, it discusses that some Swiss international medical review company recently classified UNREMITTING erectile dysfunction as a possible negative side effect (which the FDA and Merck do not acknowledge). European manufacturers are now required to include this as a side effect.

During my 4-weeks on Propecia, I thought I noticed a consistent ~10% decrease in libido. This was immediate: 2-days in I noticed it, and then it leveled off. Also, possible tiredness or loss of motivation (another side effect not acknowledged by Merck or the FDA, but prevalently discussed in the online help forums). NO NOTICEABLE DECREASE IN HAIR LOSS, but that's to be expected with only a 4-week dosage.

(For this next part, you can think I'm crazy, but please still offer advice, if you have any, other than stay in therapy.) Here's the rub: I also suffer from very serious obsessive compulsive disorder, from about the age of 8 or 9. It royally screwed up my life, for a decade, until the age of 18 or 19, when I finally realized what was wrong with me, and opened up to a slew of psychiatrists and took SSRI's to get my obsessions under control. Basically every psychiatrist I've ever seen has told me I should have been institutionalized at some point. The OCD was also accompanied with serious depression and very serious anxiety. My life was essentially a (edited for profanity)for the first 17-18 years--I say that relatively unemotionally because I'm basically a different person now. That said, the ages of 20-22 were seriously looking up: I finally had my OCD to a point where it was present but not causing these horrible feelings, and went off the SSRI's (which I hate, they make me flat and apathetic, they might work for some but are horrible for me and will probably be replaced in 10 years due to side effects, as will Propecia), felt like a new person--like I was finally coming into my own, got entirely rid of the depression, managed the panic attacks with one-hit SSRI's. As anyone with severe OCD intrusive thoughts can tell you, it's hard to ever get a grasp on reality or block out some of the (edited for profanity) horrifying images or thought processes that go on. But other than that, I started feeling decent, for the first time in my life.

The (edited for profanity) dark and hilarious irony of all this is that I began to worry about my hairline receding WELL BEFORE it actually started to recede. Little to no familial history of it, I just got that one that in my head, and that was it. It penetrated every thought process: even my hypnosis sessions, which I used to treat the anxiety. For all I know (although my hypnotist swears this is impossible, and I think it probably is), I might have self-induced this by thinking about it compulsively under hypnosis two years ago. I didn't give a (edited for profanity) about it while I was on the SSRI's, but now that I'm trying to stop them, it eats away at me until I can't stand it.

This is the worst (edited for profanity) thing, I think about this (edited for profanity) day and night, it keeps me up at night, I can't focus, the depression and feelings of hopelessness return, I can't participate in activities sometimes over the past few months because the ONLY thing I can think about is this. I'd shave my head right now forever, but everyone who is aware of the situation says that if the obsession with it is that bad I need to be medicated. I'm trying to just lead a normal life without medication. And I think if I'm one of the people for whom Propecia does not effect negatively, that would be one of the last anxiety gateways for me to pass in this (edited for profanity) up procession that has been my life. I am more than okay with ~10% decrease in erection potential. I would SETTLE for a 50% decrease in libido, erectile potential, etc, if I just would never have to look at my hairline again. And if it (edited for profanity) receded, FINE, I don't give a (edited for profanity) then, just as long as I'm doing everything I can to prevent it. I know this is insane, but I can't and don't care to explain what goes on in my head. The two things that won't make it worth it are permanent ED and any sort of mental debilitation--I've had enough problems with my (edited for profanity) head to deal with anymore. Hence, why I asked question (C), does anyone know of instances when Propecia users detected prolonged and worsened side effects, after they stopped taking the drug? I am as in-tune as I can be with the side effects, so as long as I can stop them if I notice them worsening, I'm fine. But if there's some sort of rapid debilitation after stopping the drug when mental side effects are noticed, I'm (edited for profanity), and it looks like I'll just have to go back to the meds, probably.

Any help is appreciated. Sorry for this long post.

joebronson,

Welcome to our community.

Though I have yet to read through your entire post, I just had to edit your post for your use of profanity. As it says in our terms of service

"You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this software service to post any material which is of a commercial or promotional nature, knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law. You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by this BB."

In the future, please refrain from using profanity in your posts.

Thanks,

Bill (Falc)

quote:

C. Does anyone know of cases where side effects WORSENED after the drug was stopped? By this, I mean do people notice the side effects, quit the drug before they get too serious, only to notice that the side effects get worse afterwords?

Joe, you're pushing very far.

The real percentage of such cases must be "extremely" low, but not completely impossible. There is a risk with any treatments.

Also, the psychological response to a symptom should not be dismissed. As an example; someone experiences erectile dysfunction at the onset of a treatment (not uncommon), panics, and stops the drug. Then focus (or obsess) on the possibility of suffering from that symptom again, only to trigger a psychological version of that same symptom. Common occurrence... ask any sexologist.

quote:

I am a 23-year old male with what I believe is the beginning of slight MPB. It is absolutely not noticeable to anyone but me, and even the dermatologists only acknowledged it as "slight, if any, beginnings to a deepening widow's peak."

Sounds like you're developing a "mature hairline", and it's perfectly normal. The opposite would be abnormal, unless you're a woman.

I would definitely wait, or maybe use a bit of minoxidil on the hairline if you "really" want to use something (Minoxidil should be less of a focus point for your OCD).

My reasoning is that the positive effect of a medication should "at least" be superior to the negative effect, whether this negative effect is real or imaginary.

In that sense, I don't think you're ready to embark on finasteride.

quote:

The dark and hilarious irony of all this is that I began to worry about my hairline receding WELL BEFORE it actually started to recede. Little to no familial history of it, I just got that one in my head, and that was it. It penetrated every thought process

Since there is a very small history of hairloss in your family, chance is really on your side.
Good luck

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.g...ed&pubmedid=17026771

Read this.It might be of use to you.

Swim

quote:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SERIOUS:
[QUOTE]C. Does anyone know of cases where side effects WORSENED after the drug was stopped? By this, I mean do people notice the side effects, quit the drug before they get too serious, only to notice that the side effects get worse afterwords?

Joe, you're pushing very far.

The real percentage of such cases must be "extremely" low, but not completely impossible. There is a risk with any treatments. [END QUOTE]



I disagree. He is not pushing far. I think he very well placed the question. Maybe you did not notice?

He said, " do people notice the side effects, quit the drug before they get too serious, only to notice that the side effects get worse afterwards?

So, conclusion, one can only know about will he or not get the side effects ,only after he gets them,(if he gets them) and they are very serious.

The reality about propecia is that 2% experienced side effects. Of those who stayed on the drug despite these, a lot of the sides resolved. After stopping the drug, sides went away - although it can take 3 months.

Merck had to conduct randomised clinical trials, which will have been reviewed by the fda prior to approval. Thay cannot lie about the results, they could bias them, but a good thorough analysis by the fda would have found that.

I prefer not to look online about sides from propecia - I prefer to stick to the evidence based data.

We know however, that with anxiety and OCD, there can be effects on libido and other similar things. My concern is that if you go on propecia again, you will experience these side effects because you are anxious about the prospect of getting them. This happened to me when I started propecia - but after I learned to stop myself from becoming anxious, I've never had a problem.

Good luck.

Hi,
1. Propecia will not help you re-grow lost hair, it will ONLY speed down the lossing process.
2. Propecia has some effects on sex drive, it might go down after few months of use, as DHT (Dihydrotestosterone)5α-Dihydrotestosterone
Here is some professional info on it:
(is a biologically active metabolite of the hormone testosterone, formed primarily in the prostate gland, testes, hair follicles, and adrenal glands by the enzyme 5α-reductase by means of reducing the 4,5 double-bond. Dihydrotestosterone belongs to the class of compounds called androgens, also commonly called androgenic hormones or testoids. Androgens are part of the biology of gender by stimulating and controlling the development and maintenance of masculine characteristics. DHT is 3 times more potent than testosterone; testosterone is 5-10 times more potent than adrenal androgens.
While DHT is best known for its roles in causing male pattern hair loss and prostate problems, it is crucial to virilization and is necessary to mitigate estrogen's effects in men.)SO PROPECIA WILL BLOCK, AND SEX DRIVE MAY GO DOWN

Thanks for all of your responses. So many people also speak of the mental side effects of Propecia--has anyone here experienced these or heard about these?

Swim:

quote:

I disagree. He is not pushing far. I think he very well placed the question. Maybe you did not notice?

Hey swim, I think you're swimming a bit too far, as usual.

The incidence of side effects that would "worsen" after stopping use must certainly be much below 0,1%. No official studies for these numbers, but since the official numbers for side effects "on" meds are around 2% (though debatable to a certain extent), trust me they should be "that" low for "worsening" after stopping.
(who's going to want to pay for a study with such an incredibly low incidence anyway).

So yes, he is pushing very far...

Like I would be pushing very far to worry about making a woman that is sterile pregnant while using a double condom and her using a contraceptive pill.

quote:

Hi,
1. Propecia will not help you re-grow lost hair, it will ONLY speed down the lossing process.

Hey Nida and Larry,

with all respect, 66 percent of people in the official propecia studies (reviewed by most worldwide health organizations including the FDA in the U.S.) had hair REGROWTH (that is two thirds (2/3) of the people, that means a whole lot of people).

Here are the official numbers:

In the clinical study of 535 men taking PROPECIA, 99% had visible results (growth or no further hair loss) after 2 years
     • 66% had visible re-growth of hair
     • 33% had no further hair loss
     • 1% had a visible decrease of hair

On a longer term, after 5 years: 48% had hair re-growth (still HALF of people), plus 42% no further hair loss...


Why are you spreading false information docs?

Just need some internet exposure?

quote:

2. Propecia has some effects on sex drive

On a minority of people...

Enough said.

Serious,

I presume you suggest we can not go to a higher authority than those statistic numbers you quote.

So, be it. Let me ask you then, where did you get those statistic numbers?
Then after you found the source, please check the words that they use, and the words that you use.

Are those words the same?

Do they state that such and such number (percentage) “noticed” and “reported” adverse side effects?
Or, that such and such number (percentage) “had” adverse side effects?

What can be necessary consequence of you mixing the notion of someone noticed and reported libido decrease and someone actually had his libido decrease ?

I suppose that many things can happen ,even changes in our bodies, but we do not notice them until (and NOT before then that moment) they become significant changes.

Look at the numbers that you use :

quote:

“Here are the official numbers:

In the clinical study of 535 men taking PROPECIA, 99% had visible results (growth or no further hair loss) after 2 years
• 66% had visible re-growth of hair
• 33% had no further hair loss
• 1% had a visible decrease of hair”

So ,to all those man the drug worked. You say so, am I right serious?

So, if that is the case, how did the drug cause that positive effect on all those people? By blocking the DHT hormone. Am I right?

If so, in all those statistically high numbers, the drug successfully blocked the DHT hormone.

Now, we know that DHT is “guilty” of causing male pattern hair loss and prostate problems.

Sure, it is. But,it is crucial to virilization and is necessary to mitigate estrogen's effects in men as well.

Now because it was successfully blocked, by propecia use, in the numbers you presented to us, that crucial ingredient, that mitigates estrogen’s effects in men ,is GONE.

So it will certainly, using the same principle ,by blocking The DHT ,block the good sides of DHT as well as the bad.

Will that blocking be significant enough for one to notice the change within his body, that is another story.

Serious, something existing (like a change in our body),and noticing that something is existing (those changes) ARE Two different, and separate things.

That was for Serious.

I wish to say something upon the present subject here, so obvious that no apology will, I hope, be expected from me for giving my opinion . I will not enter a detailed statistics. For the point I wish to make those numbers are irrelevant. Because few particular objections have been made, to the opposition to it.

However, those consist only of reasoning’s, some of little application, and others totally distinct from the point in question.Let us have no objections to the facts.But ,let us read the facts,first.

To me, in order to dispel any doubts which might still be entertained, one thing is urged upon us for mutual examination.

Does Propecia block effects of DHT?

If yes,does DHT have only the properties of causing male pattern hair loss?

If no, is it also crucial to virilization and is necessary to mitigate estrogen's effects in men?

If yes, then this is the point – what one considers side effect?
Loosing the effect of virilization and controlling the estrogen in the body, in men?

Or, Loosing the effect of virilization and controlling the estrogen in the body, in men, to the extend that it becomes noticeable and affects sexual performance, significantly enough, that we notice it?

If it is the first, to me Propecia has side effect …..all the time.

If it is the second, it is up to the individual using it to ascertain the cons and pros. To some, to sacrifice DHT effect of virilization and controlling the estrogen in the body might not be side effect.

To some, it will.

quote:

Originally posted by SERIOUS:

My reasoning is that the positive effect of a medication should "at least" be superior to the negative effect, whether this negative effect is real or imaginary.

Hey,Serious

Who is the judge of that?That more hair,is superior to mitigation of estrogen's effects in men.
You?

And,to you, is the fact that finasteride blocks the good properties of DHT as well,imaginary?

Swim... 3 posts about me? Dude, you swim all over me. Stop that, you'll make me blush.

By the way, finasteride doesn't "block" DHT as you say... Finasteride will selectively inhibit the type 2 isoenzyme of 5a-reductase only. It will not eliminate (or block) DHT at all, it will only reduce it to some extent, which varies from person to person, and varies with time, considering the tolerance effect we develop with any medication.

So please at least get your facts straight before elaborating into semi-pop-science speeches.

Did I recommend propecia to Joe in his situation? I did not.
Didn't I say that every treatments have risks? (as small as sometimes they can be): I did.

There is no perfect science. You have a heart condition? well you have some medications for it, and they also have risks...
Are those risks worthy for you? You decide, not me.
So go ahead, swallow your uncontrolled dose of saw palmetto, be a happy dude, walk in the street, and smile to people. No problem with that...

There's always going to be people falling into fuzzy nebulous improvised conspiracy theories. And those that prefer to stick to facts and scrutinize every single evidences, while keeping an eye opened.

I'm sure you're a cool guy swim... we just chose different camps.

What is Finasteride

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finasteride

What is SRD5A2


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-alpha_reductase

what is inhibit

http://education.yahoo.com/ref...ionary/entry/inhibit

what is to block in medical terminology

http://education.yahoo.com/ref...ctionary/entry/block

(look under no.16)

What then, is so strange, to you ,when I say,”

quote:

So it will certainly, using the same principle ,by blocking The DHT ,block the good sides of DHT as well as the bad".

(By the way, have it your way, INHIBIT, not BLOCK.)


And, when you say, I quote you :

quote:

"Finasteride will selectively inhibit the type 2 isoenzyme of 5a-reductase only"

Does not that same type 2 isoenzyme of 5a-reductase,catalyze the conversion of the male sex hormone testosterone into the more potent androgen, dihydrotestosterone.

And

Is it true that Deficiencies in this gene can result in male pseudohermaphroditism?

To me, to mess with this gene for more hair is a bad trade. And to others too .So, when you say, I quote you

quote:

"So yes, he is pushing very far...Like I would be pushing very far to worry about making a woman that is sterile pregnant while using a double condom and her using a contraceptive pill.

.......
You, in my opinion, with this great analogy, try to make joebronson,to look like guy who is so paranoid not to get the girl pregnant, so he double packs condoms ,although, it is common knowledge that one condom reduces the chances of that almost to null.

But, in my opinion, you don't have ANY success in that. He is not worried that something will not be blocked, or inhibited,( that would be the sperm in your analogy),but on the contrary, he is worried that something will be blocked, or inhibited ,and, he is quite right, it will (that would of course be,like you said your self,type 2 isoenzyme of 5a-reductase ).

Because, you told us that with the numbers you presented your self.

You try to prove something with preponderance of evidence, using smiling faces and words like dude ,whilst in your own presentation, you prove (to me), beyond reasonable doubt, TO ME, that on the contrary, in significant numbers, Finasteride will selectively inhibit the type 2 isoenzyme of 5a-reductase,and that fact alone, for me (or to me) is a side effect. I don't want to mess with hormones and genes that play key role in my health and well-being ,whatever it was designed by nature to do, from behavioral perspective ... from an anatomical or biological perspective.

Swim,

Are you related to a John36 by any chance?

Bill (Falc)

quote:

Are you related to a John36 by any chance?

LOL...whatever happened to him?

quote:

Also, the psychological response to a symptom should not be dismissed. As an example; someone experiences erectile dysfunction at the onset of a treatment (not uncommon), panics, and stops the drug. Then focus (or obsess) on the possibility of suffering from that symptom again, only to trigger a psychological version of that same symptom. Common occurrence... ask any sexologist.

Correct. There is certain measure of pschyological effects to all drugs, "placebo" effect being one of them.

quote:

Swim,

Are you related to a John36 by any chance?

Well spotted falc

quote:

To me, to mess with this gene...

DHT (dihydrotestosterone) is not a gene at all. It's an active metabolite.

-------------------------------------------

John, I mean Swim36, I mean Swim... please just re-read my previous post. It's all in there. I'm not trying to "prove" anything like you say. I don't have to... It's already proved, and the information is out there, accessible to all, and reviewed by scientific organizations.

Your whole speech is based on the absence of DHT, when in reality DHT is still present all over your blood stream / organs / and body tissues, even AFTER finasteride has done its job. Yes it is lowered to various extents, but not absent at all.

For instance, there is "more or less" 36-40% DHT still present in the scalp after finasteride is metabolized (in the scalp of a new patient), and though there is no study to corroborate this (and I doubt there will be any soon), this percentage of DHT presence in the scalp should gradually augment after a while, even with consistent finasteride use.

Fortunately for us hair loss sufferers, finasteride is quite a safe drug, and it works for a "majority" of people. It's prescribed by 100% of top HT doctors I know, and most of them will hesitate or even refuse to perform surgery on certain people if they don't start finasteride PRIOR to surgery (I'm talking about people with a low to medium degree of hairloss, and to advanced diffuse thinning cases).

But like with any treatments there is risks involved (as small as they can be) and I respect the fact that some people (including yourself) think that these risks are not worthy for them.

quote:

he is worried that something will be blocked, or inhibited ,and, he is quite right, it will (that would of course be,like you said your self,type 2 isoenzyme of 5a-reductase ).Because, you told us that with the numbers you presented your self.

From your logic, it seems that anything that inhibits something in your body is not designed by nature and should be therefore avoided.

Most medications work by either inhibiting, augmenting, or transforming subtle components of our complex body structure.

Even the food you eat inhibits, augments or transforms subtle components of your body structure.

In that sense... what seems to be your logic, "completely fails to be logical".