How wonderful it was to have a public forum like “The Bald Truth” radio program to debate questionable modalities of hair loss treatment like laser therapy. For a long time I’ve wanted to debate a “cold laser” industry advocate publicly, but there were never any takers when I would ask. However, I think the national recognition Kobren has earned over the years as a consumer advocate made his request one that couldn’t be refused or ignored on the part of the industry. The following are my thoughts and opinion of the debate.

On Sunday August 26 on XM-radio Dr. Alan Bauman and I debated the merits of low power laser therapy for hair loss. Dr. Bauman was given the floor to make his case for laser therapy, but he failed to do so. One might have expected him to point us to a website that demonstrated undeniable and mind blowing before/after photos and testimonials, but he couldn’t. Instead, he gave us a website of photos that would easily be torn apart by educated viewers like readers of the Hair Transplant Network.

None of these photos showed any significant change after “treatment” and the usual deceptive photography practices were well represented: such as the wetting of the hair in the before photo and then showing dry puffed out hair in the after photo; or showing the scalp in the before photo at one angle and then the after photo at another angle to make an area APPEAR to have grown hair, or showing the existing hair cut short in the before photo and grown out longer in the after photo. Of course there was no clinical information about the medical history of these laser “patients” so we can’t know what medications they were on before, during, or after “treatment”. How convenient.

Without convincing photos he really couldn’t establish that the supposed phenomenon of “laser induced hair growth” was a reality. But that didn’t dissuade him one bit. He then launched into a well rehearsed list of scientific studies, texts, and papers that supposedly supported the existence of the phenomenon. This was supposed to quiet me, and while some of the sources he cited sounded a little impressive, most sounded outright ridiculous and laughable-like his reference to Russian scientific evidence.

I was prepared for this tactic and was able to dismiss any and all supposed scientific evidence out of hand by simply pointing out that you can’t use the scientific method to prove a phenomenon that doesn’t exist in the first place. That’s putting the cart before the horse and is an invalid way of demonstrating the existence of a phenomenon. It’s like looking for the details a crime when NO crime ever took place. Plainly stated- if you can’t see a cosmetically significant change in hair volume and/or coverage after “treatment” with just your own eyes then there simply is NO phenomenon to speak of or study in depth. This is just common sense.

A phenomenon is SELF EVIDENT and doesn’t need scientific evaluation to prove its existence. For example, the Northern Lights are a well known and easily described PHENOMENON, you do not have to understand the scientific aspects of electro-magnetic radiation, atmospheric distortion, and solar wind to witness it, you only need to open your eyes and look. The growth of hair from laser light therapy does not suffer from such obviousness and so does NOT exist as a valid phenomenon. If it is not an existing phenomenon, then only someone with an agenda will attempt to “study” it. Think of séance mediums at the turn of the 20th century.

In reality, the “science” that Dr. Bauman presented had absolutely nothing to do with the growth of hair using laser light. Rather I believe it was a hodge-podge of studies that were thrown out in an effort to lead a lay public to INFER that a non-existent phenomenon had scientific support. The connections were as weak and tenuous as those presented in support of wild theories about UFOs, the Bermuda Triangle, and the Loch Ness Monster.My personal favorite was the paper Dr. Bauman cited about how ATP is “energized” when in the presence of laser light. I think both the public and the scientific community deserve better than that when handing him thousands of dollars for a treatment that uses a phenomenon that does not exist.

Dr. Bauman’s credibility really came under fire when it was found out that the ONE person who called the show in support of the laser comb turned out to be HIS OWN PATIENT. This would not have been such a scandal except for the fact that neither Dr. Bauman nor the caller disclosed this very important fact until I started questioning what the caller was claiming. When it came out who the caller really was and that Dr. Bauman actually put him up to it behind the scenes, Mr. Kobren stated on the air that he was never informed that the caller was a patient of Dr. Bauman.

I can’t state what Dr. Bauman’s intentions were when he asked this patient to clandestinely call in on behalf of laser hair treatments that he sells for thousands of dollars, but I have my suspicions.

Also note that throughout the entire 2 hour live broadcast, only ONE person called in supporting laser therapy. For a show that reaches millions of people each week I think that’s enough evidence to show that no such phenomenon exists. It seems that the only people who claim such a phenomenon exists are those who stand to benefit from it -not very convincing to me.

Why is it that grocery store check out clerks whose hands are exposed to laser light all day do not complain of excess hair growth on the hands or forearms? Why is it that people who work in laser printer factories or laboratories that use lasers all day have not reported unwanted hair growth? The obvious answer is that there is no such phenomenon.

The bottom line is that I am convinced my position is correct simply because I know and understand what lasers are. “Laser” is NOT a substance as laser therapy advocates would have you believe, but rather a form of energy. As such it does not contain any mystical powers and cannot affect cellular material in anyway other than to transfer the energy into to heat.

If lasers positively affected the body at the cellular level then advocates of laser therapy would have us implant fiber optics throughout our bodies and light ourselves up like an internal Christmas tree, and while this may sound silly, it is only marginally more ridiculous than shining a laser pointer on your head and expecting it to grow hair.

I look forward to continuing the debate with Dr. Bauman on this forum.

I have to disagree here for a monment....

I used the Hairmax laser comb under lab conditions as directed for 8 weeks and I am sprouting the bushiest head of hair all over my head. And the fact that I am being paid loads of cash by Lexington international to spew for such crap has nothing to do with my impossible claims.....

seriously.....

I wish I had read Dr. Fellers post before wasting cash on that useless piece of crap......

Dr. Feller,

Thank you for taking on this issue head on and standing up for the patients. Too many will be ripped off by this scam.

Since Dr Bauman even stooped to using a setup caller, it tells you a lot about those that push this "product".

Is there anyway to download the program from the archives??


I posted this in another thread and got a good laugh out of it. Found it on ebay, laser pushers!


ATTENTION EBAY BUYERS SOME SELLERS HAVE INSTALLED LASERS IN CHEAP AUTO FLASHLIGHTS AND RECHARGEABLE HOUSE FLASHLIGHTS AND SELLING AS HAIR GROWTH DEVICES.THESE SHODDY MADE UNITS ARE REASON SELLERS CHANGE IDENTITY OFTEN. PLEASE BE CERTAIN AND ASK QUESTIONS AS THESE SELLERS ARE A DISERVICE TO THE PHOTO-BIOSTIMULATION INDUSTRY.


Looks like the scammers are being scammed!! LOL!

Dr. Feller,

Thanks for taking the time with such a detailed post. I am not an advocate for their benefits nor am I convinced that they will do nothing, but I will certainly agree with you that many times it is those selling the products that have the most to gain.

I also wonder if you also believe that there is no scientific benefit to the use of lasers for healing purposes? In my profession, these are the big rage right now and some can be upwards of $10,000 or more. I have tried them myself and can't honestly say if they did anything with limiting pain, but I think that they might have and it seems like we do get decent results. Again, it is similarly based on the idea of the effect it has at the cellular level on the mitochondria. Who really knows?

Thanks again for the post.


NN

I agree with Dr. Feller about the laser, but his post is obnoxious and egotistical.

Curious,

Now you can say that you have been formally introduced. Yes, he is a little that way but actually a very straight shooter and good guy. I personally like that he gives it to you like it is, putting all the bullshit aside.


NN

Wanthairs:
Perhaps you can contact the company and trade in your comb for a new and improved deluxe model

Nobuzz:
I don't know if it has been archived yet, but imagine it will be. You can be sure I'll post a link to it when it comes available.

Your post about laser pushers is funny, but not as funny as doctors beginning to subtly slam laser combs because they're not as good or effective as the large laser units they have in their offices (and bill thousands of dollars for). Looks like the laser combs are taking a big bite out of their business and they are beginning to react.

Watch as more and more doctors start claiming on their websites that their office machines have one hundred lasers and are therefore better and more effective than the "cheap" home units or laser combs. In my book ZERO times ZERO is still ZERO

Also watch out for moving laser heads in different patterns to start making an appearence as well as magnet and new age crystal attachments (just to cover all the bases you know)

Nervous,
I do not believe there is any benefit in using lasers for healing purposes. You can rest assured that if that were true every emergency room and operating room would be bathed in such light. There is no such phenomenon, just wishful thinking at this point. What is your profession and why are lasers the rage in it?

Dr. Bauman also used the mystical effect on the mitochondria to support his claim, but clearly couldn't explain how it related to hair re-growth. Just throwing out a bit of biological jargon is not enough to prove a phenomenon like laser hair growth-although that's exactly what he attempted to do on the air. I'll blow that claim right out of the water right here and now:

We already know that cells that have dht receptors receive a signal to kill themselves when dht arrives. That is the accepted mechanism of hairloss and it is called apoptosis. This means that the programming within the cell is altered to cause it's own death. Now, if you "energize" the mitochondria, the "powerhouse of the cell", then all you are doing is giving it more fuel to carry out its established programming- WHICH IS TO CAUSE CELL DEATH. This will accelerate hair loss, not slow it or reverse it.

It's like increasing the current available to the powersupply in your computer and thinking it's going to somehow change the programming on the hard drive. It's ridiculous and it doesn't happen.

Curious- I'd rather you think less of me and know the truth about supposed laser hair regrowth treatments. I know my post is a bit upsetting and definitely confrontational, but if you know of a better way to get the point across without stepping on toes I'm all ears. I'm not the one making fantastic claims to the public and then charging thousands of dollars for it. And please remember that there is nothing stopping me from doing so-except the fact that I know it doesn't work.

The emperor is wearing no clothes. There, I said it.

Very interesting...

I was completely unaware that this live debate was happening. I just wish I knew ahead of time so I could have tuned in.

I had actually just written my philosophy on how I evaluate hair loss products that I think goes hand and hand with what Dr. Feller is saying - though in a general sense.

One can have all the scientfic evidence in the world (though I have doubt that laser therapy is scientifically credible), even that seems a bit shaky), but without public evidence (visual proof - something that can be seen and observed), the scientific evidence loses credibility - thus the phenomenon only exists in theory, which is not good enough to recommend as a treatment to hair loss sufferers in my opinion.

Let us be careful however, as I do not want to see this thread turn into a Dr. Bauman bash.

In fact, I welcome Dr. Bauman to come here and share his perspectives and views.

A healthy debate is educational and good for the public.

But let's by all means keep it friendly.

Cheers,

Falc

"How wonderful it was to have a public forum like “The Bald Truth” radio program..."

Yeah, whatever happened to Kobren? I wasn't aware of the radio program at the time I guess, but I read the book, "The Bald Truth" a couple years ago after stumbling upon it in the library, which is how I learned about Propecia in the first place. He was a strong proponent of finasteride use back when the book was published (I think in the late 90s), claiming that it had regrown his hair almost entirely. But I am curious to see how his hair has held up over the past 10 years. I believe he was like one of the first guys to get fin. prescribed for MPB, so it would be interesting to hear his opinions on whether or not the drug always significantly loses effectiveness over the years. Anyone know if he's still around? Sorry to interrupt the laser talk.

Dr. feller, I have no problem with you calling Dr. Bauman out, thats what a debate is.
I keep asking for creadible evidence that laser does or doesn't work.

I like many others are tempted by the magic wand & want to believe in fairy tales.
But you cleared that up pretty well for me because what you are saying makes sense.

Why not stand under a plant grow lamp?
Same idea.
Energy going nowhere!

While we are on the subject of hairloss magic potions, I would love to hear your professional opinion on Finasterides effectiveness & Side effects.

Is it really worth taking a pill everyday that may or may not be working & may produce side effects?
Especially in 20 year olds, who will assumably be taking them for life or until the next big thing comes along.

Thanks for your comments,

I particpated on the program for much of it's duration with Dr. Bauman and Dr. Feller. While I am not qualified to argue the pros/cons on a scientific level like trained doctors I did take on the issue of how these products are marketed. I first became interested then concerned about the use of laser therapy for hair loss when the news of it's FDA clearance was so liberally tossed around in the media. Understandably, the media latched onto this development with sensational coverage but after reviewing the FDA submission and subsequent clearance obvious discrepancies regarding the claims vs. the truth emerged. I covered this extensively in a previous post here...

http://hair-restoration-info.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1466060861/m/8701040113


According to Dr. Bauman, on air no less, laser light therapy with regards to hair loss is only "marginally" as effective as Propecia or Rogaine. While I even question laser therapy's effectiveness as being marginal at best I have a big problem with how it is marketed. Any and every outfit that offers a variant on the laser therapy that was CLEARED by the FDA (for safety)is claiming the same for their own product. This is true for both the hand held devices and the hoods that are in distribution. While the hand held devices are relatively harmless on the wallet, the hood devices are demanding upwards of 5000.00 per year of treatment. How can something that is "marginal" in it's effectiveness be so expensive?

When you look at the mechanics of laser light therapy it is crucial to examine the details of the emitting diodes. They are class IIIA diodes operating in the 650nm range.

You can see one with the specs here...

http://www.sunetics.com/products_clinicallaserunit.aspx

Cost, about 3500.00 to 4000.00 per year.

Coincidentally, there are other items that are available for purchase that operate in the same 650nm range and are given the same Class IIIA label.

http://www.lasersale.com/catalog/display_item.asp?id=1002


Cost, 18.95.

To be fair, I am not saying that each product operates exactly the same. The only variable that is unknown (at the time of this writing) is the difference in power output but what is not in question is that both of these devices put out the exact same "healing powers".

Let it be clear that my motivation for even getting involved in this is only because I feel it is seriously misleading to the BUYING public. As I always say, I am a patient first, so I don't like it when patients purchase hair loss treatments under false pretense. As a professional in this industry, I could easily make a some cash personally endorsing this product and the clinic I represent could just as easily purchase one of the clinical units or the hand held units for resale. I/we do not, because as I tell patients in consultation, if I/we thought this worked and was worth your hard earned money, we'd offer it.

I understand that my voice will do hardly anything to put a dent in this already hard rolling marketing machine but if I can cause even one person to stop and at least think then my efforts are worthwhile. Think, learn, apply.

quote:

Let it be clear that my motivation for even getting involved in this is only because I feel it is seriously misleading to the BUYING public. As I always say, I am a patient first, so I don't like it when patients purchase hair loss treatments under false pretense.

I feel exactly the same way.

Unfortunately, it's not just laser therapy that is sold this way. Look at Hair Transplant ads from Bosley and MHR? I personally love the magic show of hair floating from the side and back of the head of a NW5 onto the balding areas leaving the patient with a full head of hair!

This is the way the WORLD of marketing works. Companies try to convince the general public that their product is not only desirable but NEEDED TO SURVIVE!

Not only that but often times only the benefits are promoted (dramtically overstated I might add) whereas the risks are forgotten (more accurately: PURPOSELY LEFT OUT).

And as Joe rightfully pointed out - many of these products are significantly overpriced.

I personally think this is sick. In my opinion this should be illegal but sadly it is not.

We live in a "Buyer Beware" society.

Unfortunately the majority of the world is turned on strictly by how they feel and the necessary time it takes to research the truth never happens. In other words, people WANT TO BELIEVE so badly that they do so without question. So people will pay astronimical prices in order to receive inadequate service because of the "promise" that these companies create.

So all readers of this thread beware...

Research everything thoroughly and don't buy into commercial claims of garbage. Maybe a product will be of some benefit - but rarely will it be as great as a company promotes.

Regarding lasers specifically...

If there is any level of efficacy at all - let it be show in the form of scientific AND visual proof!

Continue on...

Falc

Pseudo-science, disingenuousness, and quackary should be illegal, but they are not. They even get rewarded in certain cases.

I believe, as Jotronic pointed out, that laser comb sales and useless in-office laser treatments by physicians will skyrocket in the coming years. One only has to look at the success of the bogus hair regrowth formulations that are sold over radio and tv daily to see the bright future for laser "therapy".
Very unfortunate.

Marketing products that don't demonstrate any true clinical efficacy is nothing new, but the laser comb breaks new ground in that now PHYSICIANS have become openly complicit. I for one am very disappointed in the doctors that are selling this form of "therapy" to patients and hope that they will someday be held accountable.

Jotronic's motivation in exposing laser treatments is to protect the consumer from paying thousands of dollars for a useless treatment.

My motivation is to protect the trust that the public has placed in physicians in general, and hair transplant doctors in particular. Doctor's who sell this "therapy" put that trust in danger for all of us.

By the way, has anybody noticed that Dr. Bauman has NOT joined this discussion?

Where are you Dr. Bauman?

Perhaps Dr. Bauman has not been made aware of this thread. His presence on the forum has been absence as of late.

Falc

Dr. Feller and others,

Again, I want to point out that I am not saying that they do work but I am the type that likes to keep all of our minds thinking.

Dr. Feller does HT's. His livlihood could be hurt if a product or device ever did help grow hair. Moreover, I know that he himself has had some work and possibly tried all the snake oils himself and is bitter about one more product that could possibly be useless.

Don't read much into the above statement. Lasers very likely might be useless. I just personally believe that we should not all shut our minds to it. Dr. Feller is a well respected HT surgeon but not a specialist in biophysics. I am sure that if one searches they will find a person that believes in the efficacy of lasers that is not financially tied to them.

To close--Doesn't sunlight get transferred into energy for all of us and everything on this planet to survive? Doesn't mean it will grow hair, I understand, but there is certainly more going on then a pretty red light emitting from a machine in some cases.


NN

Nervous,
My business will NOT be affected at all by laser therapy, so please don't think it is my motivation.

My motivation is that I can't stand claims that go beyond the reasonable. Laser therapy has stepped way over that line in my view.

You are right that I am not a specialist in biophysics, but neither is Dr. Bauman, and since it is he who is making the fantastic claim shouldn't it be he who is held to a higher standard and not me? Doesn't this just make common sense?

NN,

One think you need to realize is that Dr. Feller, Hasson & Wong or any clinic for that matter can easily run out and purchase one of these units and start making a lot of money, fast, so not only is there no reason to be threatened by this therapy there is every reason, save for one, to jump on board. We choose not to as does Dr. Feller because we feel it is not the right thing to do. Even if there is some benefit to laser therapy the admitted marginal gains are hardly worth the investment for the patient.

I agree that it's good to keep our minds open to new hair loss products.

But keeping the mind open doesn't equate to product recommendation in my eyes.

I believe in visual proof in addition to scientific evidence (in indeed there is really any science to using lasers to stimulate hair growth).

Currently it appears that all we have is speculation and an FDA approval for safety.

But is that true?

Allow me to balance this argument a little bit by presenting data I've seen to support laser therapy.

Please understand my attempt to balance the argument does not mean I'm in support of laser therapy.

But I think a rebuttal from a doctor such as Dr. Feller would further educate this community.

See the FDA documents here

What about photos of this Dr. Bauman female patient posted here?

This data was found on a thread started by Dr. Bauman found here.

I do hope that Dr. Bauman decides to join us.

Great discussion guys....carry on!

Falc