I see Dr Bernstien offers the laser "treatment" but is very careful to say "longterm effectiveness is unknown" on his site.

Wonder if he spends any time under the lights? Na, he just probably rings the register$$$$.

http://www.bernsteinmedical.com/medical-treatments/revagelaser.php

I spoke with Dr. Bernstein last week and he told me that he does not find laser therapy to be useful for men and so does not offer it to male patients under any circumstances.

For now he believes that there may be some efficacy for women so he is going to try that for the next year and see how it turns out.

I believe Dr. Bernstein to be a quality hair restoration physician.

But I'm not sure why anyone would think laser therapy would have effectiveness in one sex and not the other.

Perhaps Dr. Bernstein can share with us why he believes this?

I suppose I still am waiting for the scientific explanation of how laser therapy works to rejuvenate hair follicles or the derma papilla cells.

Even still...I'm waiting to see the physical proof of efficacy. Where are all the compelling and realistic patient before/after pictures?

Falc

quote:

Originally posted by nobuzz4me:
Dr. Feller,

Thank you for taking on this issue head on and standing up for the patients. Too many will be ripped off by this scam.

Since Dr Bauman even stooped to using a setup caller, it tells you a lot about those that push this "product".

Is there anyway to download the program from the archives??


I posted this in another thread and got a good laugh out of it. Found it on ebay, laser pushers!


ATTENTION EBAY BUYERS SOME SELLERS HAVE INSTALLED LASERS IN CHEAP AUTO FLASHLIGHTS AND RECHARGEABLE HOUSE FLASHLIGHTS AND SELLING AS HAIR GROWTH DEVICES.THESE SHODDY MADE UNITS ARE REASON SELLERS CHANGE IDENTITY OFTEN. PLEASE BE CERTAIN AND ASK QUESTIONS AS THESE SELLERS ARE A DISERVICE TO THE PHOTO-BIOSTIMULATION INDUSTRY.


Looks like the scammers are being scammed!! LOL!

This is just another rip off scam! There is no scientific reports that claim that these products work or provide any sort of hair growth. This is nothing more then pure garbage. Unless you can back up the claims, they are simply a fraud.

Falc,
I couldn't have said it better myself.

Ryan,
I agree with you completely. What you have to understand is that even IF there were "scientific reports" available to back up the claims it does NOT mean that they are valid or relevant. In truth, laser therapy advocates cite "scientific reports" all the time, because that's all they CAN report. Rather than show obvious proof via photos, Dr. Bauman dove right into several scientific reports that could not be validated or even shown to be relevent. His was a wasted exercise becasue without evidence of the existence of the phenomenon in the first place, there was absolutely no point in citing "scientific" reports.

Ok...I'm not sure what to think here. On the one hand..a transplant doc trashing something like the laser can indeed be able to capitalize on it. Saying he could make money on them by selling them..if that's the only thing you can think of...

I'm also surprised at the lack of confidence in the FDA approval. I feel the same way about minox and propecia..and many other drugs out there.....but still

Then there's the issue of what you expect something like a laser device to do. Are you expecting major results? Like the other 2 FDA approved products are supposed to provide?(think sarcasm when reading that last sentence). Or are you wanting something additional to help in this fight. Many do not want to go the surgery route, for various reasons.

One of the things about lasers that got my attention was their ability to "increase" SOD. You know..Superoxide Dismutase, as in cu peptides and other SOD mimetics found in Tricomin etc? If true, I'd rather spend a couple/few hundred dollars up front rather than keep spending money on topicals that do the same thing. And I realize that is not the only way each can work.

The following is something I posted a long time ago, so some of the links are no longer legit:

http://www.laserexchange.co.uk/intro...l_Changes.html


a) Super Oxide Dismutase
Acute inflammation -> superoxide free radicals

S.O.D. + arachidonic acid -> prostaglandin E

PGE - changes in nociceptor membrane potentials (increase in firing rate, increased vasodilation)

SOD amounts increase significantly after LILT.

- pain relief

- resolve inflammation

(Lombard et al, 1990; Urcuoli et al, 1991)

http://www.iama.edu/LaserAcupuncture...cupuncture.htm

"In vitro experimental evidence has demonstrated acceleration of collagen synthesis in fibroblast cultures due to acceleration of mRNA transcription rate of the collagen gene. Superoxide dismutase activity is increased (this decreases prostaglandins). This is postulated as one mechanism of pain and oedema reduction. Other effects are: inhibition of procollagen production in human skin keloid fibroblast cultures and stimulation of phagocytosis by macrophages, increased fibroblast proliferation, as well a wide variety of cellular responses."


http://www.theralase.com/Lasertherapy.htm



"The natural healing of a wound can be divided into 3 phases: the inflammation, the proliferation and the remodeling. LLLT (Low-Level Laser Therapy) assists in all 3 areas by increasing the fibroblasts (the building blocks of collagen, which is predominant in wound healing), speeding up angiogenesis which causes temporary vasodilation (diameter of the blood vessels increases) and by speeding up the reabsorption of a haematoma (swollen area). LLLT is also very useful for burns by stimulating the enzyme superoxide-dismutase, which inhibits the peroxidation of unsaturated fatty acids (burns)."

And for the record..even though I posted that a # of years ago...I still have yet to buy or use a laser device.

Jacob,
You obviously haven't read the thread nor listened to the radio broadcast. My argument against laser products went far beyond the fact that I could sell it but don't. In fact, I never made that argument in the first place during the debate. Maybe I should have.

You have cited "scientific studies" in the same way that laser advocates do, yet even YOU haven't bothered to buy the thing.

Sure, those papers MAY demonstrate SOME interesting mechanisms, but they are a FAR cry from being relevent to the discussion. You must FIRST establish the existence of the phenomenon THEN you can use science to explain it- not the other way around.

Laser adovates have not yet proved the existence of the phenomeon of cosmetically signficant hair growth secondary to laser exposure.

It is also the laser advocates goal to make a false equivalence between other FDA APPROVED medications and their FDA CLEARED device.

Unlike laser combs, there is a demonstrable and legitimate phenomenon occuring when either of the medications are taken. No scientific explanations needed.

In the case of minoxidil this phenomenon is not only experienced by those who benefit from it, but those who don't-namely women who experienced hair growth on their chest. There is no better confirmation of the actual existence of a cosmtically signficant hair growth phenomenon than that. LLLT has no such confirmation. All it has are references to microscopic results and obscure un-realated scientific studies.

If you want to easily judge when it's time to by a laser product for hair regrowth, just go to any website of the company that sells them and look for consistent and unquestionable before/after photos. When YOU see significant results that don't include deceptive photography, then it's time to buy. Believe me, you have a very long wait ahead of you.

Not only have I read the thread, I've read it twice. I haven't had the chance to listen to the radio broadcast but I look forward to it.

*I* haven't bothered to buy the thing because *I* have never thought I'd be consistent with it because how one has to use it. A new one came out that is cordless etc, and seems more like something I'd use- so I still may get one.

What I provided is not irrelevant to the discussion. You just want to say so to try to bury it and move on to something else. I have also read plenty of users in various forums giving the laser devices a thumbs up. Others say they got no results. I've also read the same for the other 2 FDA approved treatments, including a COMBINATION OF THE 2. Reread what I said about using such a thing, especially alone, should not leave you with the expectation that you're going to solve your hairloss problem.

Hairmax is "cleared" for safety and EFFECTIVENESS. I'm not even a fan of that company btw.



You know what, doc? I went to your website and if it weren't for the fact that you actually have to do a surgery to get the "results" your customers get, I'd say YOUR pictures would look questionable.


And btw..there are just hundreds of photos of the Minox and Propecia users available to view at the minoxidil and propecia websites, aren't there.........(I should add....and at all the places that sell such products)

quote:

Originally posted by Jacob:

I have also read plenty of users in various forums giving the laser devices a thumbs up.


Jacob, is this supposed to be complelling evidence????


You know what, doc? I went to your website and if it weren't for the fact that you actually have to do a surgery to get the "results" your customers get, I'd say YOUR pictures would look questionable.


Well Jacob, Surgery is the best way to restore your hair where it does not grow. Not sure if taking a shot at Dr. Fellers work will get your argument anywhere. Stick to the point your all over the place here.

And btw..there are just hundreds of photos of the Minox and Propecia users available to view at the minoxidil and propecia websites, aren't there.........(I should add....and at all the places that sell such products)

Nobody said these were miracle cures, did they? Again, stick to the point, your laser argument is weak at best. Maybe you should go buy one and document with pics your results, good or bad.

Jacob,

"Hairmax is "cleared" for safety and EFFECTIVENESS."

Please point to the FDA wording that states that any clinical results presented and verified for efficacy were considered. Everything I've read on the subject (extensively) shows nothing more than what the FDA calls "substantial equivalence" to other medical devices with the same basic engineering. If one wished they could argue that LLLT is nothing above and beyond what goes into assembling a pen based laser pointer. They both operate in the same wavelength of about 635nm to 650nm and are class IIIa rated.

“Jacob”,

Why such hostility? Attacking me is not going to lend any support or credibility to laser therapy.

Your wording in your posts makes you seem like a “middle of road” guy on the subject, but your attacks and aggressive style as a supposed “newbie” makes me think you have a whole other agenda and history.

Busted!

Another crazy debate on this forum.


If you think that lasers work--buy one. If not, don't. This debate will rage forever and it is likely that even if they do work it is very negligible. Both sides of the arguement have been presented and in all honesty I haven't seen definitive proof one way or the other.

Jacob--your not going to win much support by taking jabs at a doc that many of us on this forum have respect for. He is certainly one of the top HT docs on the planet so if you don't like his work, I wouldn't consider a HT. Buy your laser and good luck.


NN

quote:

Originally posted by Jotronic:
Jacob,

"Hairmax is "cleared" for safety and EFFECTIVENESS."

Please point to the FDA wording that states that any clinical results presented and verified for efficacy were considered. Everything I've read on the subject (extensively) shows nothing more than what the FDA calls "substantial equivalence" to other medical devices with the same basic engineering. If one wished they could argue that LLLT is nothing above and beyond what goes into assembling a pen based laser pointer. They both operate in the same wavelength of about 635nm to 650nm and are class IIIa rated.

Actually many are getting their own little lasers and making their own devices.

The FDA would not use words like "promote hair growth" if the product wasn't cleared for that.

Everyone here is certainly entitled to their opinion.

Looking at Jacob's registration date proves he's not a newbie however, he's only had two posts and they've both been on this thread.

Jacob,

Has any of these members of other forums posted before/progression/after pictures of their use of LLLT? Feel free to post the links on this thread for evaluation.

But you do bring up a valid point. People should not be looking at LLLT (or anything for that matter) as an end-all for hair loss. No product out there is a cure. Propecia and Minoxodil do not work for everyone though it has been proven to work for some thus the phenomenon that Dr. Feller is referring to.

The question isn't whether Laser therapy will work FOR all...but rather AT all?

That's what this discussion is really about.

Those who believe in it's efficacy, I encourage you to post some credible before/after photos to produce the phenomenon. Then we'll have something to really talk about.

Certainly if it really has been proven for efficacy SOMEONE should be able to produce before/after pictures of this?

Otherwise it has to be concluded that LLLT is simply conjecture or wishful thinking OR even worse...strategic marketing.

Best wishes,

Falc

quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Alan Feller:
“Jacob”,

Why such hostility? Attacking me is not going to lend any support or credibility to laser therapy.

Your wording in your posts makes you seem like a “middle of road” guy on the subject, but your attacks and aggressive style as a supposed “newbie” makes me think you have a whole other agenda and history.

Busted!

Oh boo hoo. Now you're going to play victim. This after your attacks on the other doctor instead of just attacking LLLT.

You're inability to refute what I'm saying, as well as your logic(as I'll show below) makes you seem like a "middle of nowhere" guy on the subject. Let's see..your own agenda would be to attack another doctor who is a COMPETITOR of yours. As for me being a newbie...I don't think so. I've been registered here since Feb 22 2005. I seem to recall this forum was updated..hence the starting over of the # of posts one has.

Someone wanted me to share this with you:

Your comment: "Why is it that grocery store check out clerks whose hands are exposed to laser light all day do not complain of excess hair growth on the hands or forearms? Why is it that people who work in laser printer factories or laboratories that use lasers all day have not reported unwanted hair growth? The obvious answer is that there is no such phenomenon."

Somebody else with some common sense: "That's just really ridiculous on so many points -such as dosage, types of lasers, the AREA that the lasers are hitting (ummm... 1) no one said that lasers grow hair where hair doesn't exist, and 2) forearm hairs aren't genetically encoded to grow longer than an inch or so anyway, 3) they don't go dormant, and 4) they certainly aren't going to be re-invigorated when they are healthy in the first place). Ughh... I don't even need to go on.

When one aspect of someone’s argument is as flawed as that –doctor or not (lol…)- then we all need to keep in mind that all of his other statements could be equally as "colored" with flawed information... purposeful or not.

...And hey, why don't people that breathe the air in propecia manufacturing plants complain about unwanted hair growth?? That's making the same ridiculous, logically flawed type of argument that he was"

quote:

Originally posted by NervousNelly:
Another crazy debate on this forum.


If you think that lasers work--buy one. If not, don't. This debate will rage forever and it is likely that even if they do work it is very negligible. Both sides of the arguement have been presented and in all honesty I haven't seen definitive proof one way or the other.

Jacob--your not going to win much support by taking jabs at a doc that many of us on this forum have respect for. He is certainly one of the top HT docs on the planet so if you don't like his work, I wouldn't consider a HT. Buy your laser and good luck.


NN

I'm really not looking for support. I think it is VERY unprofessional for someone like Dr. Feller to start up a thread here and start bragging about his interview/debate and trash another doctor etc etc. If that gets your support...ok....

I'm wondering why Dr. Feller is so intent on Debunking Low Level Laser Therapy? Why do you keep taunting Dr. Bauman???...very unprofessional in my opinion.

There are many reputable Doctor's out there who believe LLLT has some benefits.
There are many people including myself that find it helps some.

I really don't care if there is or isn't any study proving it works or not.

Case in point..look at ZIX. How many guys who are using that will Swear by it, and yet there's no science proving that it works. Look at Immoratl Hairs, Natural Approach to hair loss that he and many others swear by, no proof there either....



The only thing I don't like about LLLT is that some companies selling devices are charging Outrageous prices...Highway Robbery at it's best.

I went ahead and built my own. They're easy to make, the lasers are cheap to buy.

Why not just build one and try it. if it doesn't work, you're only out a hundred bucks or so...no biggie.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by falceros:
Everyone here is certainly entitled to their opinion.

Looking at Jacob's registration date proves he's not a newbie however, he's only had two posts and they've both been on this thread.

Thanks...but as I said in my other response I know I have posted before.



___________________________

"Jacob,

Has any of these members of other forums posted before/progression/after pictures of their use of LLLT? Feel free to post the links on this thread for evaluation."

They probably have...most probably with the use of other things(which only makes sense). I'm not going to worry about looking them up though- maybe I'll ask for such pictures though.


"The question isn't whether Laser therapy will work FOR all...but rather AT all?

That's what this discussion is really about.

Those who believe in it's efficacy, I encourage you to post some credible before/after photos to produce the phenomenon. Then we'll have something to really talk about.

Certainly if it really has been proven for efficacy SOMEONE should be able to produce before/after pictures of this?

Otherwise it has to be concluded that LLLT is simply conjecture or wishful thinking OR even worse...strategic marketing.

Best wishes,

Falc"

But there are pictures already- they're just being questioned here(at Hairmax I think it was pointed out). I'm not a big fan of pictures when it comes to any treatment btw, since no-one seems to be able to take the exact same pictures in the before/after.

I haven't seen too many decent ones when it comes to Propecia and Minoxidil either. And I'll ask again..where are they on the company sites as well as those places that sell them? And the ones that do exist are of the best responders. Just like the one you see for Applepoly- from Japan. There's one for you..for another thread ;-)

I hate to get into attacks. I try to state my point without doing that, but I have to say a few things. Feller's reasoning that if lasers really worked then cashiers would have hairy hands is so obviously crazy. I don't see anyone who uses rogaine/minoxidil with hairy palms and fingertips, so is that is proof that minoxidil doesn't work on your head? Of course not! Hair doesn't grow on the inside of your hands or your finger tips! Why should it be different with lasers?

I tried to provide some links to people who say it works. Feller says is that all I have? Well it's not my job to prove anything. I don't sell laser combs. I was simply showing that there are people claiming that it works for them. One was a TV news show where the ONLY thing the guy used for 6 months was a laser comb and he had growth. Another site had a very obvious improvement in the man's before and after pictures. If you don't want to believe it, that's totally up to you, but if you're not going to believe the pictures and posts that show it does work, then saying show pictures to prove it is just all talk. You obviously have your mind made up already no matter what you see or hear on the subject.

A while back I said I thought I was a good candidate for a laser comb if it actually did do what they claim (thicken existing hair shafts and make some miniaturized hairs grow longer and better) because I have a lot of both after using proscar for 10 years.

I started using a laser comb 6 weeks ago and said i would keep everyone updated on whether it works or not for me. I'm trying to not get too much into the debate about this until I use it at least 3 months, but I don't want to be silent either. So far I'm getting a lot more growth than I thought I would at just 6 weeks. I have a small area in the back of my head that's had a few sparse hairs for years and I can't believe how much that is starting to fill in already. I'm getting new growth over the entire top of my head. Most of it is still very fine baby hairs, but it's only been 6 weeks. I'm even starting to get a few hairs in my hairline which will be great if that continues because it will really soften up a slightly pluggy old transplant.

While I don't want to make final judgements on whether the laser comb works or not, I can say I'm definately leaning towards saying Feller is completely wrong on the subject. I'll let you know more in another few weeks.