The problem here is that talking to Feller is like talking to a brick wall. The guys made up his mind that LLLT doesn't work. Even if you showed the guy before and after pics, he'll go on blabbering his verbal vomit about how they must be fake, or saying the guy must by using some other treatment besides laser therapy etc etc bla bla bla.....

You can't win with a guy like that cause he always has to be right even when he may be wrong...

As a so called expert in the Hair restoration field, how can you debunk something just from second hand information??

Instead of being so high and mighty, why don't you just go out and buy a few brushes (I'm sure you can spare the pocket change) and conduct your own trials and see if it works or not.


You said Dr. Bernstein uses it in his practice so does that mean you think he is a Nutcase?

The exact opposite in my opinion. He's conducting his own trials, gathering his own information and will come to his own conclusions through First Hand experimentation! Bravo Dr. Berstein!....

I apologize for being presumptuous, but you have to look at the contituency of this forum where most people are at a more advanced stage of hairloss i.e. NW4+ and thus even minoxidil would have neglible impact on them let alone lasers.

There're some things photos cannot articulate clearly such as whether or not a particular treatment is slowing down hair loss or if it has any synergistic effects with other treatments.

Personally, I really don't think it's fair to call any FDA-approved products a "scam" and would not put the Hairmax lasercomb in the same category as products such as Nisim, Fabao 101D, Kevis, Hair Genesis, and Viviscal
which were truly designed to deceive people, IMO.

I mean some people are already forking out $50+ every few months on Nioxin shampoos and things like that which have not been scientifically proven to be any better than your average CVS shampoo so I just have a hard time understanding why paying a few hundred dollars one time fee for an FDA device approved to treat hair loss is so unacceptable.

This has been a long standing debate where both sides have made some valid points so I think NervousNelly has articulated things really well when he says:
"If you think that lasers work--buy one. If not, don't."

All Ill say is I used a cheaper version of the hairmax for 5 months and I have two buddies that bought a package here in Chicago at I believe Chicago hair institute for around $3500 each and have been going now for 7 months and all three of us feel extremely sad and stupid as hell for falling for this scam.
Well I dont feel as stupid as them anymore since I sold mine for $50 less then I paid

This is such a silly debate. We have so few actual positive patients on here endorsing the product ( all research and studies aside).

Why are people so stuck on it when most on here balk at it?

I think it's the word "laser" that makes everybody think it works

And if this hair institute was contacted about a money back policy what would they say?

That is a crazy price regardless...

Everone,

I actually think this is a good and much needed debate.

But I ask all parties to keep it on an intellectual level and not a personal one.

Let's not accuse posters of shilling (whether doctor or patient), but instead let's continue to make an argument and then back it up with evidence.

I am going to have to go back and look, but did Dr. Feller state that cashiers would have hairy palms from working under lasers?

Obviously this is NOT true.

No product will grow hair where there was never a follicle. The question of laser therapy is not a black and white issue. We know it's not a cure - but the question is...is it a POTENTIAL TREATMENT?

If it works at all, it will most likely work like Propecia or Rogaine which in most cases prevents further loss and only in rare cases strengthens and rejuvenates miniaturized hairs.

More of my thoughts on laser therapy, promotion, and general science...

To me, there is no sense in proving that laser therapy DOESN'T work, only that it DOES! After all, who is really interested in what DOESN'T work? But the "belief" in a product demands proof of its efficacy. If no LEGITIMATE proof can be provided - then it is only a belief or speculation. More accurately, it is the consumers belief in commercialized claims that a product works!

The belief in advertising without proof leads consumers to buy unnecessary products that won't perform as promised. Simply put - there is a lot of unethical advertising out there making preposterous claims! It saddens me. Would you all agree? Or will anyone dare to argue that all marketing is completely 100% honest in their promotion of a product?

So Jacob, when I ask you to provide links or evidence of before/after pictures on this thread - I'm only looking for proof of what a promotion demands? (Note that I'm not accusing you of promotion - I'm referencing companies - those interested in selling the product).

I hope you can understand that company website before/after pictures can certainly be deceiving - after all a company like Hairmax are trying to sell the product. Apply this to hair transplantation: Ever see a Bosley Informercial? Yikes!

So where is the SOURCE OF CREDIBLE PROOF?????

I believe the strongest source of credible proof can be found in hair loss sufferer before/after pictures - one who only has interest in restoring their hair, not SELLING the product.

This is why dedicated member "BeHappy" becomes a potential source. Hopefully he will take the time to document his progress with monthly photos and share them with us.

Now if he doesn't experience any regrowth (strengthening and thickening of miniaturized hairs) we haven't necessarily proved that LLLT does NOT work only that it does NOT work for HIM. One must be careful of over-generalizations.

But surely if the product has ANY efficacy then there should be some patient proof available.

And yes, there is patient proof available for Propecia and Rogaine. I've seen it.

Falc

See what worries me is that dedicated members like BeHappy will post some pics and then people will start slamming him by saying things like:

-"Oh, but you're taking proscar also, that's not legit"
-"Oh, those photo are not high resolution enough"
-"Oh, your hairstyle is different, that's not a fair test"
etc etc etc

Then he would feel so overwhelmed by the accusations that it would not be worth anymore of his time defending himself. I agree with him, he doesn't have to prove anything to anyone. I mean it's pretty obvious that BeHappy is not an employee of Hairmax and he is saying that is has gotten good results. Shouldn't that opinion count for something? Kinda like how JOBI feels that Revita is worth the extra money over generic Nizoral. If you go to other forums that are more "hair loss regimen-oriented" versus "hairtransplant-oriented" like this one, they are many posters claiming that the treatment works for them. Are all these posters employees of Hairmax? Perhaps, I guess..

BeHappy, thanks for taking the time to document your results. Perhaps you can make the experiment as "controlled" as possible to silence all your critics.

I do not own a lasercomb since I feel it is not worth it for me but I've read the study from the FDA website as well as read the opinions of some of the other respected coalition/recommended doctors such Dr. Bernstein, Dr. Charles and Dr. Bauman who do not feel that the lasercomb is a complete scam. Thus, I just have to stand back for a sec and scratch my head.

I also applaud Dr. Feller for making some valid rebuttals so I think this is an area of legitimate disagreement.

quote:

I am going to have to go back and look, but did Dr. Feller state that cashiers would have hairy palms from working under lasers?

He used this example during the radio program; however, he mentioned the backs of the clerks hands (that is the area that would come into contact with the laser, and tiny hairs are present there). I think the point he was trying to make was that the lasers used to scan items at a grocery store are essentially the same as the ones used to "treat" hair loss. I agree it's a little over the top, but it's a good rhetorical tactic when debating to throw in an extreme analogy like that to make people chuckle. But the point remains that lasers are ubiquitous in the modern world and no "phenomenon" (right?), or initially unexplainable side effect like growing hair, has been observed in any every-day situation in which they are used. People discovered minoxidil and finasteride grew hair when using them to treat other things like high blood preasure and the prostate. THEN research was conducted on their hair growing potential, not the other way around. I also remember reading that when larger doses of minoxidil were originally taken orally, some people did in fact grow large amounts of hair in places such as the back of their hands, so maybe his example is not so far off that something with hair growing properties might do this. What I would like to know is how expensive these machines are, and what kind of maintenance on them is required to justify a $4000 dollar a year patient bill?

quote:

I am going to have to go back and look, but did Dr. Feller state that cashiers would have hairy palms from working under lasers?

Falc,
Here is what Feller said in his first post in this thread:

quote:

Why is it that grocery store check out clerks whose hands are exposed to laser light all day do not complain of excess hair growth on the hands or forearms? Why is it that people who work in laser printer factories or laboratories that use lasers all day have not reported unwanted hair growth? The obvious answer is that there is no such phenomenon.

If you think about it this is so ridiculous. If you use minoxidil on your arms and hands you aren't going to grow long head hair in those areas. If you could do that then we just solved the donor area problem. Let's all rub some minoxidil on our arms and grow long thick hair there and then transplant it to our head.

A lot of the stuff Feller is saying sounds like it makes sense until you think about it. Then you realize how crazy his answers are... and yet he thinks it's Dr Bauman who is giving crazy answers.

Youngsuccess,
You articulated my position on the use of the grocery clerk analogy perfectly. Thank you.

I did make that remark as an extreme but humerous analogy to make my point as you noted.

However, there are in fact plenty of hair follicles on the back of the hands and on the wrist and forearms.

Dr. Bauman has had his laser "hair dryer" machine for eight years and still has no useful before/after photos to show for it. That is the real slam against laser hair therapy.

One of the laser advocates above mentioned that I was picking on Dr. Bauman. This was not my intention at all. I wanted to critique the product, and as the industry spokesman he may be getting caught in the cross fire. I don't know about him but I could have a heated debate about anything and then go out and have a beer with him, so it's not personal.

Because it may seem to be heading that way, I think this thread has run it's course and I will now sign off.

I would indeed like to see this debate continue because it is an interesting topic that I think could use some resolution (maybe that's not possible)!

The only valid points FOR laser therapy IMO would be credible patient posted before/after pictures.

Perhaps we will see some of that.

I'd STILL like to hear from Dr. Bauman on this thread.

Dr. Feller,

IMO you have made valid arguments against laser therapy and based on the evidence put before us here and elsewhere, I agree with you 100%.

Do not go gentle into that good night. I do appreciate the time you've spend educating us on this topic.

BeHappy,

Try not to take any of this personally. We know you don't work for Hairmax...or do you? Just kidding!

I do happen to agree with Dr. Feller on this one both specifically and generally speaking. I don't think his answers are crazy at all - though that particular metaphor was certainly over the top - but in a humorous way - I see the point he was trying to make.

But there is no such thing as a "debate" without hearing both sides of the argument. So thanks to you and other members for that as well.

Cheers,

Falc

Here's more. Feller says:

quote:

We already know that cells that have dht receptors receive a signal to kill themselves when dht arrives. That is the accepted mechanism of hairloss and it is called apoptosis. This means that the programming within the cell is altered to cause it's own death.

OK. I won't argue with that. I'll get back to that in a bit. He goes on to say:

quote:

Now, if you "energize" the mitochondria, the "powerhouse of the cell", then all you are doing is giving it more fuel to carry out its established programming- WHICH IS TO CAUSE CELL DEATH. This will accelerate hair loss, not slow it or reverse it.

-- snip to another of his posts --

Putting more "energy" into the cell would not stimulate it to grow better hair. If anything the opposite would be true. Hair doesn't fall out because the "energy level" of the follicle is falling due to age or "rotting". It falls out because the cells of the follicle were programmed to die. The process of hair loss requires energy to occur. Therefore, putting MORE energy into the system would either do nothing or simply hasten the hair loss effect.

If he thinks using laser therapy will accelerate hair loss then we would be seeing after pictures that look worse than the before pics and this whole laser debate would be over in a hurry. We aren't seeing that as far as I can tell. But the fun part of all that is in the next sentence he says this:

quote:

And just so we are clear, i don't buy that lasers can "energize" cells!

OK. So after all the talk about how if it energized the cells it wouldn't work, he says he doesn't believe it energizes the cells. OK, so he just eliminated his own argument about why it can't work. Perhaps something OTHER than energizing the cells is what laser therapy actually does. Sure I know that's what the advertisong calls it, but that's just advertising hype to make it sound good. Let's look past that.

Now let's go back to the beginning about DHT receptors and cells/follicles being killed when DHT is there.

Here's what I feel is happening based on using a laser comb for 6 weeks. Note that I don't claim to be an expert. This is just what I THINK is happening. I believe using the laser comb every day is breaking up the DHT in the follicle which is allowing the hair to grow better. Propecia stops the DHT from getting to the follicle, but it seems to me that laser therapy is breaking up, eliminating, disolving the DHT that does get to the follicle.

Here's why I think this:
My head and hair is less greasy since I've been using the laser comb. I don't get the gunk and hard sand like particles stuck in the pores/follicles that push the hair out. This is what seems to be making my hair feel softer and more manageable. It's less greasy and not weighted down after 8 hours of working all day.

I've been able to cut down on how much propecia (proscar) I use because there doesn't seem to be as much problems with DHT any more. I do keep using it at a lower dose because I feel like I'm coming at it from both sides. Less DHT sent to the hair and what is getting there is being disolved.

I feel that's what's allowing my hair to grow. This also explains why it's claimed to work better on people who have some miniaturized hairs. It allows them to grow rather than being killed by the DHT.

So there ya go.

hehe. No I'm not taking this personally. I actually wanted to wait another few months before I gave any results just to be sure what I'm seeing so far isn't temporary, but when you're using a product that seems to be working, it's hard to not chime in when others claim it can't be happening.

I have nothing against Dr Feller. If I wasn't using the laser comb I'd probably agree with most of what he says on the subject.

I also probably wouldn't have bought one if I had other options, but my donor area is more than depleted so I can't have any more transplants and I've been using proscar for 10 years. There seemed to be at least some evidence that it might work, so I decided to try it.

I wouldn't have bought it at $400 but when I saw I could get a 6 laser comb for about $129 I figured it was worth a try.

I said I'd let you know either way if it worked for me or not. If I didn't feel it was working, I'd be here saying Dr Bauman is crazy just like Dr Feller is doing and that's actually what I thought was going to happen, but to my surprise, so far I seem to be growing hair. Go figure!

Oh by the way, I did take a few pictures a week or 2 ago. They didn't come out as clear as I hoped (it's hard taking pics of your own head!), but I'll try to take more once a month. I'll give a full report and show pictures at the 3 or 4 month mark. Good or bad we'll see what happens.

I hope I didn't scare Feller away! That was not my intention. He said he was trying to get the topic going, so I did :-) If it turns out in a few months that all the little hairs I'm growing all fall out and I end up with no growth then I'll be back here saying he was right.

As BeHappy stated..Dr. Fellers comments on register scanners etc was insane(my word). See my previous post where I posted what someone else said about the different type of laser being used..the time under such a laser..I would add actually "scanning" your scalp instead of scanning a package..etc. To now say Dr. Fellers comments were meant to be humerous..is..well..laughable. It was just another example of his arguments not being legitimate.

falceros...Hairmax, for one, has a # of pictures. If you're going to question all of them, then there's no point in asking for them. I want to ask one..more..time- where are the ones for propecia and minoxidil? There are also a lot of pictures out there on the use of lasers for various skin disorders(it seems there has been questions here of the validity of lasers for ANY such treatment).

Dr. Feller has not made any legitimate arguments against laser therapy. The only one out there is the no pictures claim, which isn't true. Not being able to respond to my asking where the pics are at the minoxidil and propecia selling sites doesn't help.

Here are some before/after of another brand: Sunetics

I reread your "request" and later on your comments about pictures from a company can be deceiving. You mentinoed Bosley. I could easily do the same with Dr. Feller, picture by picture. Maybe we should ask for before/after pictures of his patients years down the road. And then were more transplants/surgeries needed? Etc etc. There's no end.

The Propecia and Minoxidil ones- who did those? The FDA or the companies? All of them involved in the trials- are all the pictures available, or just the best ones? I told you there's no end

HOLY COW!
I am exhausted just from reading the 4 page thread. The world, and this web site especially, needs people like you. Crazy debate, meeting of the minds if yo will. A lot of interesting points on this thread being made about the laser comb. I just don't buy it, but thats just me. Interesting and nice to see a doc contributing (for whatever reason) to this forum. Its all fun and games until somebody loses an eye...

falceros,

I think, generally speaking, what Jacob is trying to say is that if we are in agreement that finasteride and minoxidil are both unquestionable treatments for hair loss then let's do what you preach and ask why? If the answer is because there's a plethora of proofs and pics, then let's have a reality check and ask for the benefit for those who don't know: where specifically are they?

Jacob (everyone else read too...those asking for Propecia and Rogaine pictures, your wish is my command below),

This message is not an attack so please don't take it personally...

Do you really not understand the difference between promotional pictures and patient pictures?

I'm concerned for anyone who feels that promotional pictures on a website hold high credibility.

If we are going to grasp tightly onto promotional pictures I recommend STRONGLY that you all get on SCALPMED IMMEDIATELY!!!! Their infomercials PROMOTE regrowth of almost a FULL HEAD OF HAIR, even those who are almost completely bald! Of course if one looks carefully there is a small disclaimer in the bottom right hand screen of the TV that says "results not typical".

Oddly enough the active ingredient in Scalpmed is just minoxodil anyway...so they can technically get away with saying that there some level of result is possible - BUT, it is way over marketed not to mention it's just overpriced minoxodil.

But if you and others want a few patient referenced pictures for Propecia and/or Rogaine, then I'll oblige. These pictures were right at my fingertips I must add...I didn't sweat to find any of these.

I must add that there is a LOT more where this came from but I didn't want to spend all night posting pictures

For those who really want PROOF - make sure you read the threads too and not just the pictures. These are real people reporting real results.

1. Propecia - Read well respected member Hairbank's comments at the bottom and then look through his blog. Mind you he also had an HT, so I understand how this Propecia result could be up for debate:

http://hair-restoration-info.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/656...801002113#7801002113

2. Rogaine - Just surfing hairlosstalk.com under success stories I found this link:

Link to thread: http://www.hairlosstalk.com/discussions/viewtopic.php?t=38087

Link to pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/DudeInNJ/NewSpudsOfHair

3. More Propecia/Rogaine links:

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/discussions/viewtopic.php?t=32453

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/discussions/viewtopic.php?t=38995

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/discussions/viewtopic.php?t=22736

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/discussions/viewtopic.php?t=35741

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/discussions/viewtopic.php?t=38337

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/discussions/viewtopic.php?t=33719

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/discussions/viewtopic.php?t=30795

Any questions?

Where are the patient pictures for laser?

Falc