quote:

Originally posted by Jotronic:
Spoon,

With all due respect do you think that all we do are large sessions?

It honestly seems like you've learned some techniques in deflecting arguments by masking everything with technicalities. Your clinic is primarily known for megasessions so that's what's being used as the benchmark here. Since you have such a huge problem with it now, then why don't YOU post right now and tell me what percent of your clinics sessions are less than 1000, between 1000 and 2000, 2000 and 3000, 4000 and 5000, and so on? It's been a while since I saw any high school math but this should be a pretty easy exercise, just throw the last 6 months worth of cases in a spreadsheet and there you go. I have seen enough cases from your clinic to know that you support the one-and-done approach wherever possible and that includes situations where the patient has a lot of native hair but a higher-level loss pattern on the scale.

This is SUCH a stupid thing for you of all people to argue. If someone had posted and told the guy "H&W will give you a very small scar because they're willing to do strips of about 1000 grafts)" I'm quite positive there would have been an uproar because the implication is that a strip session that small is unethical.

quote:

Many donor strips are indeed 30 and even 32cm long. At the same time many are much shorter.

Well, obviously. But let's get more specific - what's your clinic known for and what percentage of your scars in the last year have been "much shorter"? What is the SHORTEST scar your clinic has ever produced on record? How short was the scar of the 1350 graft patient? These are very simple questions and if they are ignored I'll bring them up again. It's pretty clear from your voluntary posts about your clinic's results that you keep all this info so it should be very easy to produce answers.

Furthermore let me be extremely clear here - for a guy who buzzes his down like dallas said he does, any strip scar is going to show for a long time after surgery.

quote:

My point is that Gorpy did not know if this guy is getting a 1000 graft session or a 6000 graft session. And as for a 2cm scar, it was sarcasm.

Which is why he said "typical". As to the 1000 graft session, that scar will still be very noticeable for that patient. As to the sarcasm what's the point of it? Everyone knows that if a patient has enough hair loss to justify a strip surgery, they'll have scar across the back of their head.

quote:

Here's my donor scar at five weeks with a #1 buzz.

Hideous? Depends on your idea of hideous I guess but it's up to Dallas to decide since we're talking about his case.

Here's an idea, let's read what he already wrote: "I have a job in the public eye, so that's why I'm paranoid."

quote:

No one said a thing to me during the entire few months that I kept it at this length.

Big deal! People often do say anything directly to people but they say plenty when backs are turned. Point is irrelevant.

quote:

You guys are getting jacked up over this with arguing points that I'm not disagreeing with.

Actually I think you're the one getting jacked up because he said he was considering your clinic and he was warned about the scar given how he cuts his hair. To be very blunt if he was considering another clinic and got the same warning I highly doubt you would have gotten involved in the conversation.

quote:

I never said the scar would not be noticeable. I never said that it may not be an issue. A 30cm scar may be typical based on results we've shown here but at the same time it may not be based on our entire patient list. "Typical" applies to what has been seen here on the forums but may not apply to Dallas; or it may.

It may, it may not. It might, it might not. Let's cut to the chase, for a new guy starting out and researching transplants who needs to get a quick sense of what he's getting into, what are the relative chances on scar lengths? Not complicated at all. You're doing yourself a disservice with this "may or may not" crap because everyone knows that if he needs a strip, he'll have a 20-30 cm scar across the back of his head.

quote:

Gorpy does not know but we do since we're the ones speaking with him.

Really??? A few weeks ago you were on here warning everyone about doctors bypassing patient input by setting up a different website and how those doctors should be chastised and avoided for doing so. Now here you are suggesting that patients who have actually been through surgeries aren't really qualified to comment on likely strip lengths but you are because you know. Interesting.

quote:

Continue slamming me all you want but my points should be clear by now. So clear that there is no more need for argument. And like I said, helping others is what this site is all about and I know that is what Gorpy was doing. I called him on his "stats" however and now I'm the bad guy salesman. Exuuuuse me. Next time someone asks about doctor taking two strips in two days to get 4000 or 5000 grafts I'll stay out of it and let Gorpy explain why it's a good idea.

This is the reddest herring I've ever seen. Who gives a crap about any of this? Your clinic's method vs his clinic's method isn't even on the agenda in this discussion yet you choose to use that as a means to discredit him (even though you can't even conclusively prove that method is wrong) when all he's doing is warning a patient who shaves his head that if he gets a strip, the scar will be noticeable.

Regardless of what anyone here says, there is no guarantee that the resulting scar will NOT look hideous.

Even if you look at Joe's picture, some may feel it is fine, others may be uncomfortable with that scar visible.

Point of view/frame of reference.

Anyway, even if a strip 10cm X .5cm wide is taken, there is no guarantee the patient will close perfectly and no complications will arise.
The larger and longer you go, the greater the risks.

As far as shaving down, unoticeable, etc...

The answer is always plan on it being VERY noticeable and go from there.

Take Care,
J

All of this posting about a strip of unknown length/width for a graft count that is not known.

Would a thinner/shorter strip width result in a thinner/shorter scar? It's obvious that Joe got a little irritated at Gorpy's "hideous and ugly" comment as Gorpy did not know any of the specifics regarding this patient's needs or potential resultant scar. Also, using the term "typical" when applied to anything to do with HT's is dangerous. On the other hand, Joe could have taken it down a notch.

dallas, sounds like leaving a little longer hair in the back [as per Hairbank's & balody's earlier advice] might make your scar appearance problem go away.

Pics of dallas current condition would probably give a better idea of what would be necessary.

Gentleman,

Once again a case where things got drastically out of hand. No foul. No harm done. Dallas was definitely uninformed and essentially unaware of any scar from what I picked up and I think that Gorpy did him a huge favour by at least educating him. Think back to that one idiot that we banned from this site because he was a virus and intentially started thread after thread of propaganda about his visible scar.---that was obviously someone that got a HT and didn't understand where the hair came from and then regretted his decision.

Joe, the way I see it, Gorpy did you a huge favour because the last thing you would want is some sour individual hitting the internet all pissed about the scar on the back of his head that he got from H&W. Now I'm not implying that you don't educated your patients, but if he got all caught up in the excitement of his new hair it might be a detail that goes in one ear and out the next.

How about Gorpy and Jotronic kiss and makeup. I've witnessed a couple of threads where you guys have gone after each other. Both of you provide great resources for this site and its good that differences of opinions are discussed.

NN

Rhodeman,

Well put.

NN,

"Joe, the way I see it, Gorpy did you a huge favour because the last thing you would want is some sour individual hitting the internet all pissed about the scar on the back of his head that he got from H&W."

I agree with not wanting an unhappy patient but I have to disagree because his wording was off base. I didn't know who the patient was and I perceived that he did not know as much as he could have which prompted my personal cell # to be published online. I wanted to get to the bottom of this asap to find out what Dallas knows and what he does not know. I would think that my actions would have made clear my dedication to patient education. How many times have you seen someone post their personal cell # online here?

I don't look at what Gorpy said as educational. His heart may have been in the right place but his delivery was not. My initial post pointed that out. He responded very defensively with the "high horse" comment and that sparked the rest.

A strip scar may be "hideous and ugly" to him but maybe that is from his own personal experience. I don't know but he threw out a specific number regarding the length and gave a negatively vivid picture of something that I strongly disagree with. Had he been more general with the dimensions, say "20 cm to 30 cm", then we'd have no issue here.

We're working with Dallas to make sure that both sides see eye to eye. If we think we don't then we'll be the first to tell him that he should hold off. This is not an issue of whether the scar will be seen or not, it is an issue of what is acceptable to Dallas and we'll do our best to give him the most accurate picture possible to make his final decision.

Hello Gentlemen,

I've been away for a few days, and I see that this thread has turned from a "Let's help a newbie" thread to a "Let's debate about Hasson and Wong Practices" thread.

I will add my thoughts briefly to the latter part of this thread and then would like to get back to helping Dallas.

I agree with Gorpy in the sense that it's accurate to say that scars can be up to 30cm long (heck, maybe even longer). I've never really measured my scar, but I know it's one of the longer ones.

BUT, I think Gorpy targeting Hasson and Wong gave merit to Joe's post. Joe has a right to defend" his clinic when information is given that is only partially correct.

The truth is...REGARDLESS of the clinic, scars could be up to 30cm long. It simply depends on session size. But since Hasson and Wong has the record for session sizes, it is definitely a logical assumption that their larger session scars have the POTENTIAL to be longer.

I won't comment on all the other aspects of this thread, because I think we have gotten way off point. May i suggest that we take this bantor somewhere else and get back to helping Dallas?

Dallas,

I hope that you have gotten the information you have needed.

I also recommending reading the following thread that I started here:

What are the various methods of hair transplantation and how does it work?

http://hair-restoration-info.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=569...601075613#3601075613

Let me know if we can help you with anything else.

Falc

Nice deflections.

The flippant comment about Gorpy having access to patient records was a cheap shot and that started it so it seems quite hypocritical to focus on the "salesman" comment.

None of my questions were answered, no surprise.

I did not "target" H&W. I only mentioned them because Dallas stated he was going to them. I called the strip scar "hideous" because that's the word Dallas used. Joe is obviously overly-sensitive with my comments since I put him to the test in our previous discussion. I simply decided not to take any more crap off Joe. Since he attacked my initial statement, I decided to call him a "salesman". It's as simple as that. I will continue to call him a salesman every time he attacks me.

Gorpy,

You did nothing wrong my friend, infact it was good to paint that picture for Dallas. It is better that he be informed and expect the possible worst case scanario rather than get all caught up with the idea of new hair.

I believe that Jotronic got on you because of previous disagreements and the fact that Dallas was interested in H&W.

Falc--how did you interpret that it was a shot at H&W?? I didn't see it??

It's patient educator. It was out of sheer dedication that he gave his personal # as not to have him fall prey to the misinformation he may have recieved here. A personal cell # is fairly anonymous. I ask the grocer if he has Prince Albert in a can with mine all the time.
It really does look now like you were just trying to help.
It's just a matter of who...

Gorpy and NN,

I'm not saying Gorpy took a purposeful shot at H&W...I'm only stating that he made a blanket statement that targeted H&W. I understand why Gorpy did it (because Dallas said he was considering them(, but the statement in itself was misleading, which is why Joe said something.

Gorpy's statement was: "Typically H&W use a 30cm long strip".

All I'm saying is that I can understand why Joe intended to correct that statement. HOWEVER, I don't feel Gorpy was attempting to pick on H&W.

Now the problem is...that Gorpy and Joe have had some words before in other threads and simply don't see eye to eye. No need to re-hash previous topics...but it appears that topics may get more heated than they should, because of this.

Falc

Falc- As opposed to using a cleche. "With all Due respect" Review this entire thread. Before you blather.
I realize your loyalty to H&W . But....
The use of semantics/ retoric on JTrons part is simply put irresponsible .
Go have some green tea and reavaluate.
Jotrn is trying to cull someone into neverything he can offer (off line of course) After a wince of a contrary viewpoint was introduce, he became hostile twords a true gentleman (Gorpy).
Case closed. Unless I really get a rise out of the response.
Either Joe is desperate or has found prozac , because nothing he has said in his DEFENCE has anything to do with the situation at hand or the salient points put to him by spoon.
This is a great day.
Where disclosure (patient education/best intrest) vs. salesmanship (the bottom line/ yellow bricking)is taken to task.
His dash of narcisim. (I don't do anything wrong)really sealed the deal.
You fill in the blanks.
Get some rest before you say anything really stupid. (you are trying to become a lawyer right?). Review the case before coming in for your closing arguments. ; ).
This isn't traffic court this is the guys life.
(disclaimer) this is not legal advice but I once banged a paralegal so hard she brought forth a frivolus lawsuit and I won.

Aquarius,

As usual, not sure exactly what you are trying to convey.

But if you read my post again, you can see that I'm not posting out of loyalty to H&W, but out of my observations both on this thread and others.

Personally, I like Joe and Gorpy...both I consider friends in this community.

Also, not sure why you think I'm trying to become a lawyer (you are confusing me with B Spot).

I do, however, recommend that you take another look at my posts before you start questioning my intentions brother. Try to remain objective.

Falc

Spoon,

Getting six months worth of data into a spreadsheet is hardly easy. First, it's a weekend. I'm not going into the office to do this (but I did go in to remove some staples). Second, I'm busy enough as it is without having a ten foot stack of files on my desk typing in data. Thirdly, I don't need to have the data on a spreadsheet to know that we do lots of smaller sessions that do not have 30cm scar lines. Your request is hardly easy much less rational.

"It honestly seems like you've learned some techniques in deflecting arguments by masking everything with technicalities. Your clinic is primarily known for megasessions so that's what's being used as the benchmark here. "

Technicalities? How is this a technicality? Gorpy said that our scars are typically 30cm in length. I said he's wrong. I think I should know. "Typically" is one rung down the ladder from "always".

"I have seen enough cases from your clinic to know that you support the one-and-done approach wherever possible and that includes situations where the patient has a lot of native hair but a higher-level loss pattern on the scale."

What you fail to understand is that "one and done" does not relegate itself to big sessions. It means big for the area in need. Where one clinic may place 700 we'll place say 1200. Just an example but you get the point. One and done is relative to the size area in need.


"If someone had posted and told the guy "H&W will give you a very small scar because they're willing to do strips of about 1000 grafts" I'm quite positive there would have been an uproar because the implication is that a strip session that small is unethical."

Unethical? Says who? The all FUE docs? Gee, I wonder why. According to Dr. Feller this is not the case.

Quote by Dr. Feller:
"This is why if you really need more than a few hundred grafts (500) you should opt for strip."

The uproar has been deafening. Btw, that's sarcasm

ME:"Many donor strips are indeed 30 and even 32cm long. At the same time many are much shorter."

YOU:"Well, obviously."

What do you mean "obviously"? Your post is calling for numbers to back up my statement. Is it obvious or not?

"Actually I think you're the one getting jacked up because he said he was considering your clinic and he was warned about the scar given how he cuts his hair."

And therein lies the problem. I could not care less if someone says that there will be a scar. If you look back at my posts in this thread, I said that there WILL be a scar and showed MINE as a repair patient. It's the issue of it being "hideous" or not and the assumption of the length that gets me.

"...everyone knows that if he needs a strip, he'll have a 20-30 cm scar across the back of his head."

And again, I would have no problem with a statement like this because it is much more general in it's implication. 20cm to 30cm is a much less assumptive stance.

"Now here you are suggesting that patients who have actually been through surgeries aren't really qualified to comment on likely strip lengths but you are because you know. Interesting."

Hardly. When is it ok to make statements to a patient about his case when no graft estimates are given? When is it ok to make statements to a patient about his case when all is mentioned is that he shaves his head? It's like the times I've seen someone come here and ask about a potential procedure, and if it's right for them and no one asks about age or Propecia or degree of loss first. I've seen it happen. Let me reiterate, I don't care about someone saying there will be a scar. I care when the scar is characterized as being 30cm and hideous based on assumptions (that are not characterized as typical) that I get involved.

It's become obvious to me that some of you are reading, but not absorbing what I'm saying. A few times now some have pointed out my reference to the "salesman" comment. I dont' have a problem with being called a salesman. I'm proud of it actually. I'm good at what I do and I do my job with integrity so all these "salesman" comments with negative intent are useless. Keep 'em coming if it makes you feel better. It's the "high horse" comment that was out of line because that horse is not in my stable. And no, Spoon. I don't really have a stable

Now Gorpy is saying that the only reason he called the donor scar "hideous" is because Dallas said it first. So the question begs to be asked; would Gorpy repeat the description of "hideous" had the clinic been his own? Think about it.

Gorpy,

So, to summarize the situation, Gorpy made an assumptive comment that may or may not be completely off base. My response was this.

"Since when have you had access to our patient files?"

Gorpy said to get off my "high horse". If my question is deemed an attack then you have no idea what an attack is.

And Gorpy, with all due respect, you have never "put me to the test".

You know falc- I just posted a love letter to you.How empithetic and caring you are. On review I deleted it.I guess you enjoy a semi anual cut up (one a year so far for you as of yet.).But others might not. "As usual"? <quote> You don't understand me...Perfect. Selective hearing perhaps? Or should I yell?
Example.
Some guys spend thousands on mistresses' and if they don't get a few stitches and black eyes to show for it they get pissed. ; )...( Scorpio syndrome) Others might not wan't to take that route or go down that road.
As far as the walking,talking contradiction. Nothing like a man without a conscience (JT). From what I'm seeing man ,it ain't good.
Joe why would anyone wan't to absorb your recent bull$hit?
Like I said reread this thread before it gets altered.
"Never let anyone point a scalple at your head while his eye is pointed at your wallet."
I like that better.
Let's play nice.

Joe, I realize you like to use this forum as your personal marketing tool, but it doesn't work that way. I really cannot even read your B.S. posts anymore, so save yourself some time.

Bottom line is this. I tweaked Dallas's interest in the strip scar appearance. He'll now go off, research it, look at some pictures, read some more posts. Joe, using his well developed, ahem, "consultant" skills will convince him that his strip scar will look great 3 weeks post op. Dallas will go into surgery a more informed patient.

I have done my job. You can thank me later.

quote:

I tweaked Dallas's interest in the strip scar appearance.

Indeed you have. I thank you now because I was not aware of his misunderstandings and now we are getting it worked out.

You can call my postings BS all you want. That's a common response when you have no argument but I expected more from you than that. I still wonder if you would have repeated the words "hideous" and "ugly" just because Dallas first said them if he had said he was considering going to Arizona for his procedure.

So, I'm done with this thread. Too many variations on my points have been made (falsely) to make this any clearer.

Yes there will be a scar. Yes it will be visible depending on how short Dallas's hair is. Yes I asked Gorpy if he had access to our patient files and yes he responded by saying that I am on my high horse for asking. How it got to this point, I'll never know, but hey, it is what it is and anything after that is just that.

Aquarius, keep getting heated man and fight the good fight. Your signature says you don't charge anything for it

Uh- jo that was virtually illiterate. Can you wait until the salt kicks in or someone can write up a decent response. It usually takes a team and a day or to for you to reply so I'm getting worried.

<EDIT> Man I will and you edited your posts.