Hey guys, what are the qualifications needed to be named on the IAHRS list? I noticed this particular Dr. is on this list. I really appreciate all of your input and support. This is the best way one can make up his/her decision. I am so glad I stumbled upon this web site!

Kansas,

As BSpot, Jotronic, Robert, Beefy and Hairworthy have pointed out very thoughtfully and wisely - many top surgeons have the capability to dense pack grafts. But they choose not to pander to young and impulsive 20 year old patients who are focused on the hairline they had at age 17 rather than planning for the hairline that would be smart at age 20, 30, 40, 50 and beyond.

Yes, some will claim to provide the density of a werewolf during a full moon and perhaps even the same full coverage - including the temples, neck and palms.

But technical ability should be guided by ethics. And an ethical physician in my opinion doesn't dense pack temples on twenty year olds so that when they are forty years old and now bald behind their inch and a half dense packed hairline they don't dare let anyone see them from the sides.

No doubt a surgeon who is willing to dense pack temples on young patients who have been told to wait by dozens of ethical and capable surgeons will probally do a booming business. But their not going to be recommended on this community.

What a shame that we can't flash forward into the future in twenty years to see how thankful these young patients are with the benefit of hindsight.

[QUOTE]

..adult men, save for a rare few, simply do not have aggressive temple closure...

[QUOTE]

In my opinion, those adult men that do have aggressive temple closure usually look really good! As long as someone is an older adult (maybe 30's and up) and the hair loss is under control, I can't blame them for wanting temple closure. I know some older guys with hairlines like this and they're always the ones having the women tell them what gorgeous hair they have.


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[QUOTE]

..mature adult temporal recession..

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Personally, I get tired of hearing about doctors telling patients that they need a "mature" hairline. I agree that the doctor should inform the patient. However, as I stated earlier, if the hair loss is under control, give the patient what they want. If the patient has done the necessary research and decides that this is what is wanted, don't deny him/her. If they have a certain look in mind and don't get it, they're going to be unhappy.


All this is just my personal opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by kamin:
As long as someone is an older adult (maybe 30's and up) and the hair loss is under control, I can't blame them for wanting temple closure.

1. How can you tell that your hair loss is "under control"? If you have a miracle way of knowing, please share it with us!!!
2. The problem with Alvi is that he tends to close your temples and give you a low hairline REGARDLESS of your age. And we're not talking "30s and up" but lower 20s. As long as that's what you want, that's what he'll get you.

quote:

Originally posted by kamin:
Personally, I get tired of hearing about doctors telling patients that they need a "mature" hairline.

Nobody forces you to listen to anybody. You want to hear something you like? Go to the hairmills. And live to regret it.

quote:

Originally posted by kamin:
if the hair loss is under control, give the patient what they want.

Same question as above.
No doctor with a bit of ethics will give their patient "what they want", unless they agree it is for the best. When you become a doctor, you should have your patient's BEST INTEREST constantly in mind. Surgery's not some shopping mall where the "customer's always right".

quote:

Originally posted by kamin:
If they have a certain look in mind and don't get it, they're going to be unhappy.

If they have an UNREALISTIC look in mind, they are indeed going to be unhappy. But that also means they haven't done their research properly.

hairworthy,

Maybe you have already posted this,.. I have not seen it if you did. Sorry.

Why are you going to Epstein this time instead of Hasson and Wong?

This is great discussion. Now what I really want to hear from, if there are any on these forums, are past or future clients. I want to hear the good as well as the bad from them. I guess this is the only way I can actually formulate my opinion of this clinic. Results and people's perception of those results. I want to hear from people that observe these results and are unbiased.

I think the main thing when it comes to ht's , is that you can't forecast you hairloss you dont know what you will need 10 years down the road. I remember when that clown came on here defending dr armani saying things like I dont want a mature hairline and bashing guys on here for expressing concerns, I wanna see that kid 10 or 20 years from now when he has a 18 y/o hairline and no hair on the crown. I always keep this in mind when looking to do an ht, the dr's we see are not god they cant give what god gave you.

quote:

Originally posted by Beefy:
I wanna see that kid 10 or 20 years from now when he has a 18 y/o hairline and no hair on the crown

I wouldn't go that far because I don't wish anything bad to anybody, but his words were indeed irresponsible. Don't forget, however, that he might have written that on purpose, to trigger reactions and in some wicked way advertise Alvi's work.

I wouldn't go that far because I don't wish anything bad to anybody, but his words were indeed irresponsible. Don't forget, however, that he might have written that on purpose, to trigger reactions and in some wicked way advertise Alvi's work.[/QUOTE]

I was'nt trying to be mean spirited , the point is when you start receding at an early age 18-21 there is a very good possibility you will be a nw 4-5-6 , so if you use 3-4 thousand grafts just in the hairline zone and close the temples that does'nt leave much left for future hairloss. My point is still valid you will have a great looking juvenile hairline with no hair behind it. It may or may not happen to him and I dont wish it on him. I was'nt snapping back at you either I just wanted to explain myself.

[/QUOTE]Originally posted by hairworthy:
1. How can you tell that your hair loss is "under control"? If you have a miracle way of knowing, please share it with us!!!
[/QUOTE]

No miracles! But after a person hits a certain age, looks at their genetics, etc., I think that they should have a pretty good idea of future hair loss. If people didn't have a pretty good idea of their future hair loss, then no one would get a HT for fear of the 'unknown'!


[/QUOTE]
No doctor with a bit of ethics will give their patient "what they want", unless they agree it is for the best.
[/QUOTE]

I agree. However, if a full hairline is feasible, future hair loss looks minimal, and this is what the person wants, then why do I keep hearing about doctors wanting to do 'mature' hairlines even on them? Are the doctors just trying to cover their a$$e$? Just curious.

[/QUOTE]
If they have an UNREALISTIC look in mind, they are indeed going to be unhappy. But that also means they haven't done their research properly.[/QUOTE]

You're right. IF they have an UNREALISTIC look in mind. However, if it is reasonable based on genetics, etc. then that's a different story.

Kamin, You are correct: After a person hits a certain age you should have a pretty good idea of future hairloss. The problem with that is that age is somwhere between 35 and 50!!!! My dad had slight temporal recession until 38, and now at 47 he's a cueball. No one is disputing aggressive hairlines or temporal closure, but we are targeting a specific age group-- perhaps 25 to 35. The greatest fear I have for young patients is that insatiable "instant gratification" drive that will result in taking a huge risk in devining future hairloss. I think we all need to take a breath and look at hairloss from a worst case scenario, period. This immediately rules out closing temples or lowering hairlines for young people. Fifteen years later the doctor performing your HT, will probably be retired by then, leaving you holding the bag. This is a realistic possibility.
For people like myself, a NW6+, the point is moot. This entire discussion comes down to ethics.

B spot,
Well said.

Kamin,
Sounds like you still have a lot to learn about HTs... and about posting quotes as well.

I only used 1,619 FUs up for my first procedure (at the age of 20), and my donor hair is extremely thick. I would think that in combo with Propecia and 2 more HTs (as I need them), that I'll be able to always live with a normal looking head of hair.

BTW, do you guys ever consider the future in these posts? It doesn't seem that many of you do. Getting an HT now, as a young adult, is a lot more practical than it was 10 years ago.

B Spot; just curious, did your dad take any precautions such as Propecia, Rogaine or any other approach to try and control his hair loss?

quote:

Originally posted by hairworthy:

Kamin,
Sounds like you still have a lot to learn about HTs... and about posting quotes as well.

Thanks for the personal attack. I'm always impressed with someone who can't have a civil conversation without putting someone down. Keep up the good work. Sorry I hurt your feelings. Geez....

No need for name calling. Just civil discussion. Some of us are in our research stage. Those of you that are more knowledgeable, how about posting pics of your results!

quote:

Originally posted by kamin:
Thanks for the personal attack.

It wasn't a personal attack, just an attention-triggering post. Which worked since your last quote was readable.

quote:

I'm always impressed with someone who can't have a civil conversation without putting someone down.

Again, no such intention. But despite all the advice and ideas given to you above, you keep repeating the same thing, which is that an HT doc should give the patient "what he wants". Not really a "civil conversation" is it?

Laughter- no he just started wearing a hat to cover up, I think he went into denial for a few years.

DHuge, most of us look longingly at the future, with the thought of genetics and cloning potentially able to expand the amount of available hair in a donor supply. With that said, what you need to understand is you may not just be covering the top of your head. We are at the golden age of hair transplantation with advances limited to amount of grafts moved and superior closure methods. That's it, we are at the ceiling. Can you imagine 10-12 years ago a 1.5 - 2 mm punch being used, or that the procedure was done without microscopes? At this point Doc's are simply tweaking and refining the process.
In addition, some guy's lose the entire temporal region back past their ears. in addition to the enitire male pattern area. This increases your bald area to around 200 to 240 cm/2 needing to be transplanted. Now let's say you have a donor supply of 8000 grafts (alot), with a 220 cm/2 area to cover. What density can you achieve? If you go for complete coverage that averages out to 37 fu's per cm/2. That is not bald, but it is not thick either. Now imagine that you packed 2500-3000 fu's in a 40 or 50 cm/2 area which left you 5000-5500 grafts to cover a 180 cm/2 area. What might happen is an 18 year old hairline, placed low on your forehead, and thin coverage behind that. It can happen, and it does. My best friend is going through this right now, so believe me, this is not a "hypothetical" situation. This is why we ask people to wait, research, and truly understand what they might be facing. Being bald in your 20's is not fun, trust me I know. However, looking terrible for the rest of my life is not something I want to take a chance on. Of course, it is all guesswork in your 20's so some get lucky some don't. I would hope that guys never have to go bald, as I have a 4 year old son.... Hope he never has to face this.

Kamin, HT surgeons have a moral obligation to deny patients, period. I could care less what a 22 year old young man wants, come back when your 28-30 with a better grip on what you are facing. I do understand and accept your view, but perhaps you can take a step back and consider another angle. None of this would be such a big deal if we had more than 2 or 3 shots at this.
Kansas-look under hairloss photos and scroll down to the B spot HT photos. They are not updated yet but I have some new photos coming soon.
Sorry about the diatribe----just think this is important.

Nice post, though I don't think my first session was too aggressive. The hairline was not lowered or drastically altered. I had quite a bit of work done in and around the existing hair, all the way back to just before the top/crown area.

I think I'll be safe. Nothing is certain yet, but I am feeling good about my odds. The only thing for certain is that I'll probably need another session or two before I turn 35 (15 years from now).

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hairworthy:
It wasn't a personal attack, just an attention-triggering post. Which worked since your last quote was readable.
[QUOTE]

Actually, I just got lucky on that one. I don't know why it worked that time. In fact, I'm not sure if this quote worked. Instead of telling me that I need to learn how to do quotes, tell me how or point me in the right direction.

[QUOTE]
Again, no such intention. But despite all the advice and ideas given to you above, you keep repeating the same thing, which is that an HT doc should give the patient "what he wants". Not really a "civil conversation" is it?
[QUOTE]

You're not reading my posts.Go over them again. I'm not saying "give the patient what he wants" each and every time. My posts keep repeating that this could be an option for an older person with a degree of control over their hair loss and someone who has done some research, not for a 20-something year old. This whole discussion is definitely civilized because people are learning from it. The only thing that wasn't civilized was telling me that I don't know how to post and that I need to learn a lot more about HT's.