good luck to both of you guys. i'm done here...

Timetodosomething,

Sorry that I'm late to joining this discussion. As a former hair system wearer and class 5 I can really relate to your dilema.

Over ten years ago when I did my first session with Dr. Ron Shapiro the 1,450 grafts I got in my front third was considered a mega session.

It did grow in pretty well but thin between 6 to 9 months for me. I then gained fullness as these hairs gained in diameter as they matured.

However, I was still wearing my hair system, while wearing clips and taking it off as much as possible. I also cut the tape tab down to 1/3 it's normal size and used it only on at the far forward edge. Essentially, like grass, hair growth can be inhibited if it is constantly covered over (think of grass with carpet over it in the backyard).

It was not only my second session of another approximately 1,500 grafts in the front and mid scalp grew in that I felt I had sufficient density and fullness to being transitioning out of the hair system.

What I did at that time was get a smaller hair system for my crown. Then my two sessions of hair transplants in the front combed back into and through the hair system and gave me a natural hairline with a full look.

I then got a third session of just under 1,500 grafts in my crown and ultimately burned my final hair system (i.e. like a feminist burning her bra).

It was a gradual process that took almost two years. Of course, today with larger sessions I could have done it faster.

You might want to consider building up a strong hairline and frontal third and wearing a small hair system behind it for the near future. It is much easier to wear a hair system when you have a natural real hairline.

Bill and I will be getting Dr. Epstein's input and monitoring your progress as will this community.

I can understand your frustration, since at this point your hair growth is indeed not as full as could be fairly expected.

Dr. Epstein has a long history of great results and responsiveness to patient concerns. I expect that he will do every thing possible to meet your expectations.

I recommend that you give it another 3 months before reaching any conclusions. You may just be a late bloomer.

Please keep us all posted. I suggest that you create a photo album to post your current and future photos, which you can then link to from this forum topic.

I know we all understand your disappointment and we are all pulling for you.

Keep your chin up. We are all in this with you as is Dr. Epstein.

Best wishes for late stage growth.

Pat

I know Dr. Epstein didn't get where he is ripping people off so I'm sure this will be ok in the end. It's just the waiting game that is killing me. I don't use tape on my hair piece I use clips and they are nowhere near the transplanted hair. In the front I use glue and have the hair piece pulled down below the transplanted hairline so it is very rare that any glue would get in the hairline area where the transplanted hair is. My plan is to have only a crown piece about the size of a silver dollar which my stylist has already made for me. It doesn't look like I'll be able to use it anytime soon though. I really appreciate all of the posts and the personalized attention you are giving me.

I heard back from Dr. Epstein (he's really good about getting back to you). He agrees that I have lower than expected growth at this time and there could be several possible reasons for this. Gray hair tends to be slower growing (I do have some gray hair), a hairpiece might slow it down (not sure how since it is lace but I guess it is possible), or it may happen for no reason. He says in the next four to six months there should be at least another 30 to 40% growth. He will stand by his work as I knew he would and replace any grafts that do not grow. I guess when he sees me he has a way of counting the grafts to know how many may have not been successful. I think I have a good amount of donor hair available but I hate to think that I may have lost some of that finite supply.

We are going to see where I am in about a month and then determine if I can proceed with the second session or if I should postpone it. He was adamant to say he can get hair to grow where it is needed. I hope then next session he really packs the hair in thick. I think I'll probably put the remaining grafts in the front and wear a crown piece after that matures. One day I may finally go back and get the crown done as well. So, I'll let you guys know what happens in about a month.

Hey Pat I didnt realize the SUN makes our hair grow. I better take off this hat

I dont agree in just replacing the grafts that dont grow being called standing behind his work 100% You should be given your money back and a free session if things dont improve. Those were lame excuses he gave and now you have a ton a grafts that possibly didnt survive . Those are precious grafts that you may need some day. I know your frustration and sadness .I felt those emotions along with extreme rage after my first procedure .Keep you head head up

LOL!!!

Well, maybe I should talk to him about that. Maybe I should also consider another unbiased opinion. After all I have to live with this for the rest of my life. You're also right, I'm not a rich man so this was a sizable investment for me.

Why don't you try taking that thing off for good? I tried one of the "Hair Club" systems and to be honest, I felt 100% better after I took it off after a week and had a shaved down head (first time in my life at that time).

It was liberating just after a week to get it off, so imagine it would be a great rush after a long length of time.

Time to do something Im sorry to hear about your lack of growth. I had an ht with Dr. Epstein 2 months ago. I am still in the waiting stage. I was glad to hear that Dr. E will stand by his work for you. When you spend that type of $$$$ and you really dont have it,bothers me that you where really counting on a big change,then you get dissapointed. I feel for you man!!! Keep your chin up and lets believe that all things will workout to your situation.

Time to do something,
I *really* feel for you and hope all turns out well...I haven't read this *entire* thread, but there are a couple of points I would like to comment on...

Your Results Thus Far:
I have *not* seen where precisely the grafts where placed, but regardless at the 9 month mark for that # of grafts, I too would expect a better result.

What is a Mega Session:
KevKristy---

"There are a few in here who say that even full growth at 2500 will not make a difference.

I mean how carried away are we getting? 2500 was a mega session not too long ago, and people were raving on this site. Now it's nothing?

Go to Epsteins website. Most of his patients are in the 2-3K range."


Just by virtue of the fact that it was not too long ago that 2,500 grafts was considered a "mega-sesion" this does not change the fact that this is, by some docs standards today, considered a far cry from a mega-session...

Some docs have pushed the envelope and have thereby radically changed what we can expect from ht's and even a single session, *donor and laxity permitting*...

How can 2,500 be considered a mega session when H&W are *routinely* cranking out 4 and 5K grafts? Let alone those cases of 6, 7K+? Why should our expectations be stuck in the past, irrespective of how short ago that past was?


Further, 2,500 is a relative number; relative to the NW level. 2,500 grafts moved on a NW3 w/limited hair loss restricted to his hair line will make for a *huge* cosmetic transformation. But, 2,500 (even in the best growth scenario) will *not* make that huge of a transformation on a NW5...

I really don't understand peoples tendency to be stuck in the past w/respect to what is and is not considered a mega-session. We should be welcoming w/open arms those docs who can push 4 and 5K grafts out routinely and be thankful. There are so many reasons to go for the max# of grafts possible in the *first* session and little to none, not to.

Also, it is interesting to note this is the second complaint we've seen against Dr. E in just a couple of months. The Feller patient who recently had (I believe) 7K+ grafts moved in two sessions, went to Dr. E originally and was turned down for even one transplant; further he felt as though he was treated in a less than favorable manner.

I know of a few well respected members who are quite happy w/Dr. E's results (want hairs comes to mind) but nonetheless, this only exemplifies the vast discrepancy among even those in the "coalition"...

Final Note---

if you have extensive baldness (i.e. NW5+, even 4+) do you *really* want to settle for what *used* to be considered a mega-session? Part of the biggest expense of a ht, is undergoing the down time. Why go for anything less than the best of possible results?

hey notgoing2gobald
In response to 2500 and mega session. I think you need to read the entire thread.

I never said 2500 should be considered a "mega session." I simply said it was considered one not too long ago, and lately people are just dismissing it. Pat said similarly that 1500 was considered "mega" 10 years ago.

Secondly, the 2500 in question was concentrated on 1/3 of scalp. So no matter how you cut it, this should make a huge difference, even on a NW5 or 6. Falc said similarly within thread. Obvioulsy if the 2500 were spread out on the entire scalp of a NW5 it would produce a marginal difference.

Either way, thanks for your input, and advice.
-KK

quote:

hey notgoing2gobald
In response to 2500 and mega session. I think you need to read the entire thread.

I'll wait for the Cliff Notes...

I definitely sympathize with both you guys (Kev and Time). To get to 6+ months, let alone 9 months, and have such ostensibly non-existent growth would be *extremely* *extremely* troubling to me.

I agree with PleaseGrowPlease's analysis w/ regard to "standing by the work". Also, I don't think NG2GB was insinuating that ~2500 is so low of a number that you shouldn't be shocked to have such minimal effect; rather, that just in general, even with "full" growth, the ~2500 still might leave you in a clear need in your particular case.

I am trying to stay positive and hope this will all work out in the end. I
have received several private messages about this situation. I have also
sent a private message to Pat and Falc for some guidance and I am waiting
to hear back from them. They indicated yesterday on this thread that they
had contacted Dr. Epstein and they were waiting to hear back from him.

I have received some private messages urging me to consult with another
doctor and demand a refund from Dr. Epstein. I thought I had done my
research thoroughly before selecting him to do my procedure. I'm not
pointing any fingers at this time but I hope I can solve the mystery as to
why after nine months and $10K I'm still bald for all practical purposes.

I am really confused now and don't know what to do. I am really discouraged
to think that the past nine months of waiting may have been for nothing and
many of my grafts are lost forever and can never be replaced. I have been
encouraged to get a refund from Dr. Epstein and take that money and go to
H&W. I've got to live with this for the rest of my life. I am happy with
who I am and my appearance but the one thing I could never feel good about
was being bald. That is why I took all of my savings and invested in this.
I've got so much going on in my life right now this is a complication I did
not need. God, I pray this all works out.

As someone looking for a first time procedure, I find this thread both informative and disheartening. I don't care how nice a Dr. is or how much he stands behind his work. A limited donor area once harvested is irreplaceable. Are results of Time, kev and Irish homer up to this site's coalition standards?

Timetodosomething,

man I *really* feel for you, as does everyone else on here Im sure, and keep us posted as we're all here to support you. Investing nine months (of grueling patience) -AND- your savings has got to hurt; hearing those words from your recent post really drives home your pain.

While, at this point, nothing Dr. E says will be of any consolation I would still like to hear what he has to say about this and, more importantly I hope you still see a significant amount of growth and maturity.

infield missing:

"As someone looking for a first time procedure, I find this thread both informative and disheartening. I don't care how nice a Dr. is or how much he stands behind his work. A limited donor area once harvested is irreplaceable."

I completely agree w/you. Although this is extremely rare, and hopefully as mentioned TTDS will still see more growth, circumstances like these are what makes it difficult for me (and Im sure plenty others) to make this decision. As if the down time wasn't enough, the biggest loss are the grafts that *seem* to be non-existent at this point.

*If* the growth is non-existent in the coming months, I would really like to hear how rare this occurs and is it attributed to the mishandling of grafts? I have heard some opinions that it could be attributed to a patients physiology, but doesn't this only account for grafts that *thin,* and not one's that simply don't "take"?

TTDS,

The number one cause of a "failed hair transplant" procedure is poor handling of the grafts during the dissection processing, storing process, or placement process. However, physiological factors can come into play. In your case, Dr. Epstein has proposed that your gray hair may be a factor and/or the hair piece may have caused the delay.

Right now, as discouraging as your 9 month results are, I do not feel we can fully determine whether or not this is a "failed hair transplant". In my opinion, it would be wise to wait until the one year mark (which is when most veterans will tell you a hair transplant is close to fully mature) before making a final evaluation and decision. At the same time however, it's not necessarily a bad idea to get a second opinion from another qualified hair transplant surgeon or even meet with Dr. Epstein who may be able to evaluate your scalp to get a better idea of a potential problem.

In my opinion, making an offer to replace grafts for free if they don't grow sounds nice but unfortunately is of little value since 1) it is a waste of a finite donor hair supply and 2) if it didn't grow the first time, what makes anyone think it will grow the second time? I do know however, that Dr. Epstein does stand behind his work and I trust he will do everything in his power to take care of you.

Please keep us posted.

Falc

I think TTDS nailed it. It's the down time that is so devastating.

Money can be made, spent, and recouped.

Time cannot.

-KK

I did have my HT on the 4th of July. Maybe the techs would have rather been somewhere else that day. I am really concerned about the hairpiece statement. That is odd. I'm even more perplexed now because Dr. Epstein told me wearing a hair piece would be absolutely no problem and many of his clients over the years have done so. If indeed there was the slightest doubt that this could have been a detriment to my outcome I should have been told so in the beginning.

I agree with you, I don't want to take a chance of wasting more donor hair. I suppose I should go to another doctor to get an estimate of how many grafts were successful. I will need an unbiased source to determine this. Can you recommend a doctor in the Central Florida area? I see this potentially turning into a monster.